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I think you'll find that community matters even more in rural towns. We are social animals. We can't do it all alone. That modern society has enabled us to be

I think you'll find that community matters even more in rural towns. We are social animals. We can't do it all alone. That modern society has enabled us to be 'reclusive' is frankly a maladaptive outcome.

avgcorrection 3y ago
Hell is other people. Since we're apparently doing borderline thought-terminating cliches.
- biogene 3y ago
  HN is a social community too. So are other online forums, discord chat groups, mailing lists, gaming communities, open source communities, etc. People are driven to social interaction, whether virtual or in-person. I don't know what is the big deal in acknowledging that.
  - randomdata 3y ago
    That may be technically true, but is really just an implementation detail. If HN quietly replaced all the accounts with suitably capable LLM bots, it wouldn't make any difference. What this type of service really has on offer is solitary activity: Writing for one's own enjoyment, differing from a private journal only in that the software here provides some colour back to spark additional thoughts in order avoid writer's block. I'm not sure the same is true in 'real' communities.
    - biogene 3y ago
      "It wouldn't make a difference" - To whom? And how do you know? Even if a bot passes the Turing test, a community where there isn't any creativity or new information will die out. LLM is not the be all and end all of the human experience. To take it further. even if we were all in the matrix, the statement "it wouldn't make a difference" is not true - philosophically speaking. Also, humans have a circular reference with society at-large. Humans shape society, and society shapes humans. So something completely different might shape future societies, but I'd rather discuss the situation as it exists today, rather than an imagined future.
klipt 3y ago
There have always been hermits even before modern times, but I agree it's a high risk life strategy. Loners are probably much more likely to die of say, having a heart attack and not receiving help promptly.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  "Loners are probably much more likely to die of say, having a heart attack and not receiving help promptly." On the other hand, loners won't get a heart attack caused by other people ..
  - klipt 3y ago
    "People who experienced social isolation had a 32% higher risk of dying early from any cause compared with those who weren't socially isolated." https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/06/19/health/loneliness-social-isolation-early-death-risk-wellness/index.html https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/06/19/health/loneliness-social-...
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      Oh for sure. I guess except for rare exceptions, allmost no one really wants to be alone by default. But I know that I am rather alone, than in bad company.. and I met quite some people, who lived in misery, because they were too scared of being on their own for some time.
    - tonyedgecombe 3y ago
      I always wonder about those statistics, I could imagine an extrovert is going to have a much tougher time being alone than an introvert. To apply it across the whole population seems dubious.
      - Invictus0 3y ago
        Falls are a fairly common cause of death. If you are elderly and fall and no one is around to help, that is in many cases a death sentence. Consider also the parent's comment about heart attacks, which you seem to have glossed over. Seems this factor alone can explain the data.
midasuni 3y ago
No we aren’t social animals, certainly not in rural areas. Give me a good book and a quiet afternoon in the shade of a tree with no neighbours any day.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  You maybe not. But having lived in very rural areas you quickly realize that your neighbors are your safety net far more than the authorities and that in a pinch you all need to be able to rely on each other. A good book isn't going to get your car out of a ditch or help locate your kid or pet when it has gone missing.
  - midasuni 3y ago
    You may be, I may be not. That doesn’t lead to any conclusion than “some people like other people” I’ve never need to rely on anyone, other than of course normal economic transactions. Why would I park my car in a ditch?
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      > I’ve never need to rely on anyone, other than of course normal economic transactions. That's funny. You are relying on thousands of other people every day, all day long. you just don't realize it. And not all of those are economic transactions there is plenty of goodwill involved. For instance, you rely on other people not to kill you when you are driving. Every time a stranger saves your bacon when you make a mistake, for instance. They don't have to! But if that's your worldview I don't think I'll be able to change it. > Why would I park my car in a ditch? I don't think anybody who ever parked their car in a ditch asked that question prior to it happening and afterwards they probably still didn't know. But in areas where there is snow it isn't rare at all to have vehicles do stuff that wasn't quite in the plan. My neighbor in Canada managed to do this with a tractor. Fortunately for him I had a bigger tractor and was able to pull his out of the ditch. And when it was my turn someone kindly brought over an excavator... Society is a fabric, and no man is an island, not even you. You may have the illusion that you are but from the cradle to the grave you are 100% dependent on other people. Unless you live in the boonies and grow your own food and hunt, but if that were the case you wouldn't be writing here. Speaking of which: right now you rely on me to converse with you.
pizza 3y ago
The flip side of this is that -if you’re rather unlucky- being so codependent on the community can get ugly, quite fast; especially in such a remote environment. All it takes is one crazy neighbor to start turn the village against you for no particularly compelling reason.
SirMaster 3y ago
Are you sure we can't? I'm pretty sure there are people who live alone like up in the mountains or out in the wilderness alone and do just fine.
- mathstuf 3y ago
  If you lower your standards, sure. "Just fine" is survivable, but unless one derives enjoyment out of solitude and playing "is it wet or is it cold" all the time, I don't think you'll win many people over to such viewpoints. (I've done solo trips and hiked the AT; it's a great experience, but definitely not for everyone.)
  - CapstanRoller 3y ago
    Living in the wilderness doesn't mean living in squalor. Off-grid houses can be downright luxurious compared to the typical suburban tract McMansion.
    - mathstuf 3y ago
      Ah well, that is possible too. I feel that if the housing crisis is bad now, sparse off-grid housing sounds like a far worse way to solve it. And that's besides the wilderness-ruining prospects it has unless one is to build without heavy machinery (access also sounds expensive in environmental and financial costs). And with wildfires becoming more prevalent…location becomes way more important. So again, not a solution for many in my mind (even if they want it).
scotty79 3y ago
Try living in a block of flats. The fact that even though you have hundreds of people living super close to you an yet you have benefits of complete anonimity is a pure bliss.

avgcorrection 3y ago

Hell is other people. Since we're apparently doing borderline thought-terminating cliches.

biogene 3y ago
HN is a social community too. So are other online forums, discord chat groups, mailing lists, gaming communities, open source communities, etc. People are driven to social interaction, whether virtual or in-person. I don't know what is the big deal in acknowledging that.
- randomdata 3y ago
  That may be technically true, but is really just an implementation detail. If HN quietly replaced all the accounts with suitably capable LLM bots, it wouldn't make any difference. What this type of service really has on offer is solitary activity: Writing for one's own enjoyment, differing from a private journal only in that the software here provides some colour back to spark additional thoughts in order avoid writer's block. I'm not sure the same is true in 'real' communities.
  - biogene 3y ago
    "It wouldn't make a difference" - To whom? And how do you know? Even if a bot passes the Turing test, a community where there isn't any creativity or new information will die out. LLM is not the be all and end all of the human experience. To take it further. even if we were all in the matrix, the statement "it wouldn't make a difference" is not true - philosophically speaking. Also, humans have a circular reference with society at-large. Humans shape society, and society shapes humans. So something completely different might shape future societies, but I'd rather discuss the situation as it exists today, rather than an imagined future.

klipt 3y ago

There have always been hermits even before modern times, but I agree it's a high risk life strategy. Loners are probably much more likely to die of say, having a heart attack and not receiving help promptly.

hutzlibu 3y ago
"Loners are probably much more likely to die of say, having a heart attack and not receiving help promptly." On the other hand, loners won't get a heart attack caused by other people ..
- klipt 3y ago
  "People who experienced social isolation had a 32% higher risk of dying early from any cause compared with those who weren't socially isolated." https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/06/19/health/loneliness-social-isolation-early-death-risk-wellness/index.html https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/06/19/health/loneliness-social-...
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    Oh for sure. I guess except for rare exceptions, allmost no one really wants to be alone by default. But I know that I am rather alone, than in bad company.. and I met quite some people, who lived in misery, because they were too scared of being on their own for some time.
  - tonyedgecombe 3y ago
    I always wonder about those statistics, I could imagine an extrovert is going to have a much tougher time being alone than an introvert. To apply it across the whole population seems dubious.
    - Invictus0 3y ago
      Falls are a fairly common cause of death. If you are elderly and fall and no one is around to help, that is in many cases a death sentence. Consider also the parent's comment about heart attacks, which you seem to have glossed over. Seems this factor alone can explain the data.

midasuni 3y ago

No we aren’t social animals, certainly not in rural areas. Give me a good book and a quiet afternoon in the shade of a tree with no neighbours any day.

jacquesm 3y ago
You maybe not. But having lived in very rural areas you quickly realize that your neighbors are your safety net far more than the authorities and that in a pinch you all need to be able to rely on each other. A good book isn't going to get your car out of a ditch or help locate your kid or pet when it has gone missing.
- midasuni 3y ago
  You may be, I may be not. That doesn’t lead to any conclusion than “some people like other people” I’ve never need to rely on anyone, other than of course normal economic transactions. Why would I park my car in a ditch?
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    > I’ve never need to rely on anyone, other than of course normal economic transactions. That's funny. You are relying on thousands of other people every day, all day long. you just don't realize it. And not all of those are economic transactions there is plenty of goodwill involved. For instance, you rely on other people not to kill you when you are driving. Every time a stranger saves your bacon when you make a mistake, for instance. They don't have to! But if that's your worldview I don't think I'll be able to change it. > Why would I park my car in a ditch? I don't think anybody who ever parked their car in a ditch asked that question prior to it happening and afterwards they probably still didn't know. But in areas where there is snow it isn't rare at all to have vehicles do stuff that wasn't quite in the plan. My neighbor in Canada managed to do this with a tractor. Fortunately for him I had a bigger tractor and was able to pull his out of the ditch. And when it was my turn someone kindly brought over an excavator... Society is a fabric, and no man is an island, not even you. You may have the illusion that you are but from the cradle to the grave you are 100% dependent on other people. Unless you live in the boonies and grow your own food and hunt, but if that were the case you wouldn't be writing here. Speaking of which: right now you rely on me to converse with you.

pizza 3y ago

The flip side of this is that -if you’re rather unlucky- being so codependent on the community can get ugly, quite fast; especially in such a remote environment. All it takes is one crazy neighbor to start turn the village against you for no particularly compelling reason.

SirMaster 3y ago

Are you sure we can't? I'm pretty sure there are people who live alone like up in the mountains or out in the wilderness alone and do just fine.

mathstuf 3y ago
If you lower your standards, sure. "Just fine" is survivable, but unless one derives enjoyment out of solitude and playing "is it wet or is it cold" all the time, I don't think you'll win many people over to such viewpoints. (I've done solo trips and hiked the AT; it's a great experience, but definitely not for everyone.)
- CapstanRoller 3y ago
  Living in the wilderness doesn't mean living in squalor. Off-grid houses can be downright luxurious compared to the typical suburban tract McMansion.
  - mathstuf 3y ago
    Ah well, that is possible too. I feel that if the housing crisis is bad now, sparse off-grid housing sounds like a far worse way to solve it. And that's besides the wilderness-ruining prospects it has unless one is to build without heavy machinery (access also sounds expensive in environmental and financial costs). And with wildfires becoming more prevalent…location becomes way more important. So again, not a solution for many in my mind (even if they want it).

scotty79 3y ago

Try living in a block of flats. The fact that even though you have hundreds of people living super close to you an yet you have benefits of complete anonimity is a pure bliss.