5 ms·

I don't see the structural issues, dad's not being supportive is not structural. Sexism could be, but it's everywhere my experience of the chess community is th

I don't see the structural issues, dad's not being supportive is not structural. Sexism could be, but it's everywhere my experience of the chess community is that it's less than say for women's football.

jacquesm 3y ago
What you see or do not see doesn't really matter all that much, what matters is that almost all of the top players in chess (and in any sports, really) come from supportive environments besides having won the genetic lottery in one way or another. And if you think that the sexism is less in the chess community than in women's football I'm going to have to part with saying that I wished that I had evidence that that is the case but unfortunately it isn't. The chess world is - alas - no better than any other sport in this respect and that alone makes a good case for having a women's league, when you're doing something at the top of your abilities the last thing you need is to have that sort of thing on your mind to keep you off your best game. Note that there are other sports where the risks to female participants and sexism are off the scale compared to both chess and women's football (properly: women's soccer in English but never mind that) such as gymnastics.
- psychphysic 3y ago
  Ultimately seems everyone agrees a women's category is helpful. The question is should transwomen be allowed in? I can see the argument for excluding them there appears little value as they can compete fairly in the Open category. I don't think there is any benefit to the women's category to allow transwomen join. I think transwomen see they being allowed in as beneficial to themselves.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    It is a very tricky problem and it lays bare a lot of the societal issues around trans people. For instance, one problem here is that if a person that grows up as a boy transitions as a teen and they've been into chess since childhood that would already give them a massive advantage compared to the rest of the women in the competition because of the advantage that men have if they want to go into professional level chess. A girl born as a girl would have to fight for that much, much harder and this would go at the expense of their eventual rating. Chess, like playing the violin is usually - but not always, there are also late-bloomers - is a thing where the foundation is laid when you are very young, think five or six and then with a steady progression in level and coaching as you get older until you reach your peak. I'm not sure what the answer is. I'm super sympathetic to trans rights but I would like to see a more constructive approach where this stuff is worked out in dialogue and with reason rather than just to see a focus on 'rights'. It is a game and a career and being able to switch from one side to the other can give an unfair advantage, something that trans women would have to be aware of, and that given that sport is first and foremost about fairness rather than winning should lead to some kind of compromise where everybody agrees that the new setup is a fair one and which aims for maximum inclusivity.
    - psychphysic 3y ago
      It really makes you think about what sport is and why humans seem fascinated about it. What are we trying to achieve? Presumably just "entertainment" but then why do governments spend huge amounts on it? Quite a bizarre enterprise.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        That is an important observation: sport is multiple things at once to different people. For some people it is their career, for some it is entertainment, for some it is a business (sometimes a huge one) and for some it is all about personal achievement or fame or prestige (in a more institutional setting, say the olympics or a world championship). These are not mutually exclusive and the matrix of combinations and goals is very complex and not at all aligned. Cheaters are a factor (doping, using computers during online chess games, trying to hobble competitors) as are the stakes that a competition is for. Between all of those it is already a minefield before you bring in supposedly clear cut things such as human rights. But it never is clear cut in practice.

jacquesm 3y ago

What you see or do not see doesn't really matter all that much, what matters is that almost all of the top players in chess (and in any sports, really) come from supportive environments besides having won the genetic lottery in one way or another. And if you think that the sexism is less in the chess community than in women's football I'm going to have to part with saying that I wished that I had evidence that that is the case but unfortunately it isn't. The chess world is - alas - no better than any other sport in this respect and that alone makes a good case for having a women's league, when you're doing something at the top of your abilities the last thing you need is to have that sort of thing on your mind to keep you off your best game. Note that there are other sports where the risks to female participants and sexism are off the scale compared to both chess and women's football (properly: women's soccer in English but never mind that) such as gymnastics.

psychphysic 3y ago
Ultimately seems everyone agrees a women's category is helpful. The question is should transwomen be allowed in? I can see the argument for excluding them there appears little value as they can compete fairly in the Open category. I don't think there is any benefit to the women's category to allow transwomen join. I think transwomen see they being allowed in as beneficial to themselves.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  It is a very tricky problem and it lays bare a lot of the societal issues around trans people. For instance, one problem here is that if a person that grows up as a boy transitions as a teen and they've been into chess since childhood that would already give them a massive advantage compared to the rest of the women in the competition because of the advantage that men have if they want to go into professional level chess. A girl born as a girl would have to fight for that much, much harder and this would go at the expense of their eventual rating. Chess, like playing the violin is usually - but not always, there are also late-bloomers - is a thing where the foundation is laid when you are very young, think five or six and then with a steady progression in level and coaching as you get older until you reach your peak. I'm not sure what the answer is. I'm super sympathetic to trans rights but I would like to see a more constructive approach where this stuff is worked out in dialogue and with reason rather than just to see a focus on 'rights'. It is a game and a career and being able to switch from one side to the other can give an unfair advantage, something that trans women would have to be aware of, and that given that sport is first and foremost about fairness rather than winning should lead to some kind of compromise where everybody agrees that the new setup is a fair one and which aims for maximum inclusivity.
  - psychphysic 3y ago
    It really makes you think about what sport is and why humans seem fascinated about it. What are we trying to achieve? Presumably just "entertainment" but then why do governments spend huge amounts on it? Quite a bizarre enterprise.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      That is an important observation: sport is multiple things at once to different people. For some people it is their career, for some it is entertainment, for some it is a business (sometimes a huge one) and for some it is all about personal achievement or fame or prestige (in a more institutional setting, say the olympics or a world championship). These are not mutually exclusive and the matrix of combinations and goals is very complex and not at all aligned. Cheaters are a factor (doping, using computers during online chess games, trying to hobble competitors) as are the stakes that a competition is for. Between all of those it is already a minefield before you bring in supposedly clear cut things such as human rights. But it never is clear cut in practice.