3 ms·

Do you build rules just for the bad actors or to do you try to build a pleasant and equitable society? The bad actors in most cases won't follow them anyhow, n

by Aloha 3y ago

Do you build rules just for the bad actors or to do you try to build a pleasant and equitable society? The bad actors in most cases won't follow them anyhow, no matter how draconian they are.

not_alexb 3y ago
> The bad actors in most cases won't follow them anyhow, no matter how draconian they are. IIRC, I heard a very liberal biologist (Robert Sapolsky @ Stanford) say capital punishment does stop a certain amount of the population.
- yard2010 3y ago
  But at what cost?
- Terr_ 3y ago
  (Context: Moist/Spangler is a criminal about to be hanged.) > 'You're a card, Mr Spangler,' said Mr Wilkinson. 'It won't be the same without you around, and that's the truth.' > 'Not for me, at any rate,' said Moist. This was, once again, treated like rapier wit. Moist sighed. 'Do you really think all this deters crime, Mr Trooper?' he said. > 'Well, in the generality of things I'd say it's hard to tell, given that it's hard to find evidence of crimes not committed,' said the hangman, giving the trapdoor a final rattle. 'But in the specificality, sir, I'd say it's very efficacious.' > 'Meaning what?' said Moist. > 'Meaning I've never seen someone up here more'n once, sir. Shall we go?' -- Going Postal by Terry Pratchett
Dalewyn 3y ago
>The bad actors in most cases won't follow them anyhow, no matter how draconian they are. The fallacy about enacting stricter and stricter laws to curb lawlessness is that the lawless never did and never will care about abiding the laws.
- shortcake27 3y ago
  This argument is often cited in gun control debate. “Criminals will just buy guns illegally and law abiding citizens will be left defenceless”. And yet, in countries with gun controls, there is significantly less gun crime. I daresay this is the case for most laws. Yeah, there will be always be some people skirting the law, but implying laws have no effect is ridiculous and untrue.
  - izacus 3y ago
    Indeed... at least here in Europe, the occurence of sleepy truck trivers plowing into people dropped by quite a bit once logging switched from paper tachographs to GPS remote logging. That doesn't mean I support this kind of logging for private vehicles (it really feels like the government overstepping the safety/freedom boundary), but it did have very positive effects on heavy road transport safety.
nordsieck 3y ago
> The bad actors in most cases won't follow them anyhow, no matter how draconian they are. That's why there's a move to ELDs - it's not a matter of making punishments harsher, it's a matter of automatically enforcing the rules so that it's much more difficult to break them.
- Aloha 3y ago
  an ELD will not stop the truck from driving even if the driver is OOS, it will however make it easy to penalize the driver.
michaelt 3y ago
> Do you build rules just for the bad actors Sure. I mean, who else are the rules for? A law against murder only applies to murderers.
- jollyllama 3y ago
  That's an extremely naive view of the enforcement layer. You're ignoring all the rules surrounding due process, arrest, searches, etc. To use the murder analogy, the equivalent is if a cop says "you're under arrest for murder" and you're jailed for life with no trial.
NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
> Do you build rules just for the bad actors or to do you try to build a pleasant and equitable society? I'd say it's closer to "do you build rules that treat humans as if they were cogs in a machine"?

by Aloha 3y ago

Do you build rules just for the bad actors or to do you try to build a pleasant and equitable society? The bad actors in most cases won't follow them anyhow, no matter how draconian they are.

not_alexb 3y ago

> The bad actors in most cases won't follow them anyhow, no matter how draconian they are. IIRC, I heard a very liberal biologist (Robert Sapolsky @ Stanford) say capital punishment does stop a certain amount of the population.

yard2010 3y ago
But at what cost?
Terr_ 3y ago
(Context: Moist/Spangler is a criminal about to be hanged.) > 'You're a card, Mr Spangler,' said Mr Wilkinson. 'It won't be the same without you around, and that's the truth.' > 'Not for me, at any rate,' said Moist. This was, once again, treated like rapier wit. Moist sighed. 'Do you really think all this deters crime, Mr Trooper?' he said. > 'Well, in the generality of things I'd say it's hard to tell, given that it's hard to find evidence of crimes not committed,' said the hangman, giving the trapdoor a final rattle. 'But in the specificality, sir, I'd say it's very efficacious.' > 'Meaning what?' said Moist. > 'Meaning I've never seen someone up here more'n once, sir. Shall we go?' -- Going Postal by Terry Pratchett

Dalewyn 3y ago

>The bad actors in most cases won't follow them anyhow, no matter how draconian they are. The fallacy about enacting stricter and stricter laws to curb lawlessness is that the lawless never did and never will care about abiding the laws.

shortcake27 3y ago
This argument is often cited in gun control debate. “Criminals will just buy guns illegally and law abiding citizens will be left defenceless”. And yet, in countries with gun controls, there is significantly less gun crime. I daresay this is the case for most laws. Yeah, there will be always be some people skirting the law, but implying laws have no effect is ridiculous and untrue.
- izacus 3y ago
  Indeed... at least here in Europe, the occurence of sleepy truck trivers plowing into people dropped by quite a bit once logging switched from paper tachographs to GPS remote logging. That doesn't mean I support this kind of logging for private vehicles (it really feels like the government overstepping the safety/freedom boundary), but it did have very positive effects on heavy road transport safety.

nordsieck 3y ago

> The bad actors in most cases won't follow them anyhow, no matter how draconian they are. That's why there's a move to ELDs - it's not a matter of making punishments harsher, it's a matter of automatically enforcing the rules so that it's much more difficult to break them.

Aloha 3y ago
an ELD will not stop the truck from driving even if the driver is OOS, it will however make it easy to penalize the driver.

michaelt 3y ago

> Do you build rules just for the bad actors Sure. I mean, who else are the rules for? A law against murder only applies to murderers.

jollyllama 3y ago
That's an extremely naive view of the enforcement layer. You're ignoring all the rules surrounding due process, arrest, searches, etc. To use the murder analogy, the equivalent is if a cop says "you're under arrest for murder" and you're jailed for life with no trial.

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago

> Do you build rules just for the bad actors or to do you try to build a pleasant and equitable society? I'd say it's closer to "do you build rules that treat humans as if they were cogs in a machine"?