4 ms·

> Except you could find an alternative for asbestos. I don’t think anyone could come up with a replacement for plastic that is… not plastic like. Modern humans

> Except you could find an alternative for asbestos. I don’t think anyone could come up with a replacement for plastic that is… not plastic like. Modern humans have walked the Earth for 300,000 years. We use plastics for 0.03% of our history and suddenly think we can't survive without them. ಠ_ಠ

userbinator 3y ago
Would you consider life in the mid 19th century and before to be "modern"? That's how it was before plastics.
- scottyah 3y ago
  I'm not the person you're responding to, but it is a very interesting question. "Modern" life isn't even ubiquitous, and being in my 30s living in a large US city on the upper side of middle class definitely alters my own perspective of "modern", but I cannot imagine life without cellphones, internet, all food being grown/hunted/processed by others (unless for fun) as modern. Living in a city that has plumbing is probably not something most of the world has even now, but to think that "up until the middle of the 19th century, people were still doing their business in pits, outhouses, and, of course, chamber pots" seems crazy to me, and I would not consider it "modern" whatsoever.
- zokier 3y ago
  They didn't have plastics, but 19th century western life was already massive trainwreck ecologically and in no way sustainable. Also mid 19th century is poor example because the modernity was extremely unevenly distributed. Sure, upper class Londoner might have lived very modern life, but that is hardly representative of the era in general
- tokai 3y ago
  Yes. The modern era of history starts after 1500. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_era https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_era
spockz 3y ago
The GP wrote about replacing plastics because they are ubiquitous in our daily life. They are everywhere in manufacturing and transportation, and technology/electronics. So indeed we have survived for a long term as humankind. Most of that time we were simple hunter/gatherers. Do you want to go back to that age? Can you imagine the popularity of going back to such austerity? If not, we probably need a replacement.
- DoingIsLearning 3y ago
  > Do you want to go back to that age? Can you imagine the popularity of going back to such austerity? Ridiculously dramatic. The main source of microplastics is single-use plastic in packaging and plastic textile both of which could be dramatically reduced and in many cases outright banned. The main barrier is not technological, the main barrier is purely economical, no company would want to foot that bill and no regulatory has the courage to enforce it.
system2 3y ago
We weren't 8 billion people, didn't rely on transportation, agriculture, computers, communication, etc etc. I'd personally love to have a wooden keyboard.
- function_seven 3y ago
  Wood is a terrible choice for your keyboard. The steam will destroy it in no time!
RF_Savage 3y ago
Most humans to ever have lived have lived or currently live during the age of plastics. The population growth and demand for plastics has been massive. Last 15 years saw as much plastics being manufactured as all the years before it. And we are not yet even at peak plastic use, it is still increasing.
- jwilk 3y ago
  > Most humans to ever have lived have lived or currently live during the age of plastics Nope: https://www.prb.org/articles/how-many-people-have-ever-lived-on-earth/#section__3 https://www.prb.org/articles/how-many-people-have-ever-lived...
  - lostmsu 3y ago
    Would make better argument if not for absurdly low life expectancies the majority of these people head.
zokier 3y ago
Ebony, ivory, whalebone, buffalo hide, rubber plantations, yeah, we did such a great job before modern plastics
- flangola7 3y ago
  Those were ethics problems and comparably trivial to solve. Harvesting hides and rubber trees can performed without wanton cruelty.
  - zokier 3y ago
    Did you miss the little detail that elephants, buffalo, and whales were hunted to the brink of extinction to a degree that the populations probably will never fully recover, and same happened with logging of ebonies and other valuable tree-species, both exotic and domestic. Even back then the demand far surpassed sustainable extraxtion levels, and human population has since grown by almost an order of magnitude. There is nothing trivial in these problems.
globular-toast 3y ago
Because we're stuck in a local optimum. We never leave any room to get out. Everything is squeezed to the max.
DoingIsLearning 3y ago
People are shutting down the discussion in a somewhat dishonest way. "Can't get rid of all plastics so let's do nothing!" The societal need we have is to get rid of single use-plastic and frail plastic based textiles which are the two main contributors for this microplastic degradation into our water cycle and food (and all wildlife ecosystems). Even purely from an engineering standpoint it is absolutely ridiculous to design a part that will last 450 years to then use it to carry soda around for 45 min. Apart from single-use plastic usage in laboratory work and medical applications all other uses only have a purely economic benefit and should be banned (and the companies that transition should fork the costs). They have externalized the environmental cost of packaging for decades, a market correction is overdue. The issue is not about getting ready of plastic. The ABS plastic part inside a mechanical assembly will likely do it's job for decades undisturbed. The issue really is banning single-use plastic.
- RetroTechie 3y ago
  Single-use plastic would be much less of a problem if the material would be (at least somewhat) biodegradeable. Why make candy wrappers from material that lasts centuries when buried? Before plastics, a paper wrapper, or loose candy in a tin, did the job. Use biodegradeable materials for such applications, and candy wrappers, cigarette packs etc will still wind up in the environment, but not stay there forever. Easy problem application-wise, big win for the environment.
- ChatGTP 3y ago
  I just want to give an anecdote here, because I love your comment and share your views. So I live semi-rural and it's hard to fathom how much plastic comes off disintegrated blue tarpaulins. Occasionally I've tried to dispose of them if I find them abandoned, I have a technique now where I cover them with a thick polyester bag before disturbing them because oh my god, the amount of fiber that comes of them is absolutely disgusting. They should be banned and anyone selling them receives heavy fines. What's more annoying is they're often used for the most useless, superficial tasks, like covering machinery (very easy to build a small shed instead), covering firewood, covering a shed before it's knocked down etc. There are just other ways to achieve the same result, hell even using tin to cover things is pretty cheap and easy way to keep rain off wood. One of my neighbor had one covering some firewood and it was absolutely insane how polluted our field was with the shredded pieces. I hated it so I removed it with his permission and excavated the top layer of soil and had it incinerated at a proper facility so it didnt end up in nearby waterways.
bamboozled 3y ago
In Japan, after the Fukushima nuclear accident, the government had to do something with all the contaminated soil, do you know what they did? They got tens of thousands of huge black heavy duty nylon weave bags, filled them up with soil and incentivized or asked prefectures to take them and do things with them, so you know what many prefectures did? They created a new disaster by burying it in embankments next to rivers, build strange retaining walls from it near highways, and often, just having the plastic bags disintegrating out in the sun. It's really, really freaking bad what happened there, but no one cares or questions it, it's just there, polluting everything. We've done so much damage, it has to stop...

userbinator 3y ago

Would you consider life in the mid 19th century and before to be "modern"? That's how it was before plastics.

scottyah 3y ago
I'm not the person you're responding to, but it is a very interesting question. "Modern" life isn't even ubiquitous, and being in my 30s living in a large US city on the upper side of middle class definitely alters my own perspective of "modern", but I cannot imagine life without cellphones, internet, all food being grown/hunted/processed by others (unless for fun) as modern. Living in a city that has plumbing is probably not something most of the world has even now, but to think that "up until the middle of the 19th century, people were still doing their business in pits, outhouses, and, of course, chamber pots" seems crazy to me, and I would not consider it "modern" whatsoever.
zokier 3y ago
They didn't have plastics, but 19th century western life was already massive trainwreck ecologically and in no way sustainable. Also mid 19th century is poor example because the modernity was extremely unevenly distributed. Sure, upper class Londoner might have lived very modern life, but that is hardly representative of the era in general
tokai 3y ago
Yes. The modern era of history starts after 1500. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_era https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_era

spockz 3y ago

The GP wrote about replacing plastics because they are ubiquitous in our daily life. They are everywhere in manufacturing and transportation, and technology/electronics. So indeed we have survived for a long term as humankind. Most of that time we were simple hunter/gatherers. Do you want to go back to that age? Can you imagine the popularity of going back to such austerity? If not, we probably need a replacement.

DoingIsLearning 3y ago
> Do you want to go back to that age? Can you imagine the popularity of going back to such austerity? Ridiculously dramatic. The main source of microplastics is single-use plastic in packaging and plastic textile both of which could be dramatically reduced and in many cases outright banned. The main barrier is not technological, the main barrier is purely economical, no company would want to foot that bill and no regulatory has the courage to enforce it.

system2 3y ago

We weren't 8 billion people, didn't rely on transportation, agriculture, computers, communication, etc etc. I'd personally love to have a wooden keyboard.

function_seven 3y ago
Wood is a terrible choice for your keyboard. The steam will destroy it in no time!

RF_Savage 3y ago

Most humans to ever have lived have lived or currently live during the age of plastics. The population growth and demand for plastics has been massive. Last 15 years saw as much plastics being manufactured as all the years before it. And we are not yet even at peak plastic use, it is still increasing.

jwilk 3y ago
> Most humans to ever have lived have lived or currently live during the age of plastics Nope: https://www.prb.org/articles/how-many-people-have-ever-lived-on-earth/#section__3 https://www.prb.org/articles/how-many-people-have-ever-lived...
- lostmsu 3y ago
  Would make better argument if not for absurdly low life expectancies the majority of these people head.

zokier 3y ago

Ebony, ivory, whalebone, buffalo hide, rubber plantations, yeah, we did such a great job before modern plastics

flangola7 3y ago
Those were ethics problems and comparably trivial to solve. Harvesting hides and rubber trees can performed without wanton cruelty.
- zokier 3y ago
  Did you miss the little detail that elephants, buffalo, and whales were hunted to the brink of extinction to a degree that the populations probably will never fully recover, and same happened with logging of ebonies and other valuable tree-species, both exotic and domestic. Even back then the demand far surpassed sustainable extraxtion levels, and human population has since grown by almost an order of magnitude. There is nothing trivial in these problems.

globular-toast 3y ago

Because we're stuck in a local optimum. We never leave any room to get out. Everything is squeezed to the max.

DoingIsLearning 3y ago

People are shutting down the discussion in a somewhat dishonest way. "Can't get rid of all plastics so let's do nothing!" The societal need we have is to get rid of single use-plastic and frail plastic based textiles which are the two main contributors for this microplastic degradation into our water cycle and food (and all wildlife ecosystems). Even purely from an engineering standpoint it is absolutely ridiculous to design a part that will last 450 years to then use it to carry soda around for 45 min. Apart from single-use plastic usage in laboratory work and medical applications all other uses only have a purely economic benefit and should be banned (and the companies that transition should fork the costs). They have externalized the environmental cost of packaging for decades, a market correction is overdue. The issue is not about getting ready of plastic. The ABS plastic part inside a mechanical assembly will likely do it's job for decades undisturbed. The issue really is banning single-use plastic.

RetroTechie 3y ago
Single-use plastic would be much less of a problem if the material would be (at least somewhat) biodegradeable. Why make candy wrappers from material that lasts centuries when buried? Before plastics, a paper wrapper, or loose candy in a tin, did the job. Use biodegradeable materials for such applications, and candy wrappers, cigarette packs etc will still wind up in the environment, but not stay there forever. Easy problem application-wise, big win for the environment.
ChatGTP 3y ago
I just want to give an anecdote here, because I love your comment and share your views. So I live semi-rural and it's hard to fathom how much plastic comes off disintegrated blue tarpaulins. Occasionally I've tried to dispose of them if I find them abandoned, I have a technique now where I cover them with a thick polyester bag before disturbing them because oh my god, the amount of fiber that comes of them is absolutely disgusting. They should be banned and anyone selling them receives heavy fines. What's more annoying is they're often used for the most useless, superficial tasks, like covering machinery (very easy to build a small shed instead), covering firewood, covering a shed before it's knocked down etc. There are just other ways to achieve the same result, hell even using tin to cover things is pretty cheap and easy way to keep rain off wood. One of my neighbor had one covering some firewood and it was absolutely insane how polluted our field was with the shredded pieces. I hated it so I removed it with his permission and excavated the top layer of soil and had it incinerated at a proper facility so it didnt end up in nearby waterways.

bamboozled 3y ago

In Japan, after the Fukushima nuclear accident, the government had to do something with all the contaminated soil, do you know what they did? They got tens of thousands of huge black heavy duty nylon weave bags, filled them up with soil and incentivized or asked prefectures to take them and do things with them, so you know what many prefectures did? They created a new disaster by burying it in embankments next to rivers, build strange retaining walls from it near highways, and often, just having the plastic bags disintegrating out in the sun. It's really, really freaking bad what happened there, but no one cares or questions it, it's just there, polluting everything. We've done so much damage, it has to stop...