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Something I think is missing from this list: make a sacrifice for the sake of the other person. If trust has been damaged, it might take more than just talk to

Something I think is missing from this list: make a sacrifice for the sake of the other person. If trust has been damaged, it might take more than just talk to repair it. You may need to give the other person part of what they want as a gesture of good will. I've seen this go a long way in certain situations. Of course, this comes with some caveats. For example, if there's a power imbalance in a damaged relationship, it's not appropriate for the disadvantaged side to be making sacrifices. Also, the person making the sacrifice is entitled to notice whether or not the other party appreciates it. After all, no one wants to be taken advantage of. The point is sometimes you just need to demonstrate a charitable attitude when you want things to get back on track.

marcod 3y ago
I agree, to phrase it a little different, you have to make yourself vulnerable to repair a connection. Ideally, both sides will :)
donw 3y ago
You are correct. Words are cheap, and trust is expensive to repair, if it can be repaired at all.
innagadadavida 3y ago
As a software engineer in a fast paced high expectations team, I’ve come to realize writing tests is a good way to show this charitable attitude especially when you are new and have little knowledge and little leverage.
bmelton 3y ago
One should also expect it to take time. Perhaps the best analogy I've heard is that trust is a glass jar -- it can be slowly diminished or emptied out all at once (or the jar could indeed shatter), but absent extreme circumstances, the way in which it is usually built is by adding one marble of trust at a time and without doing anything to damage the trust until the jar is full.
jfengel 3y ago
If you trusted that a sacrifice would be received, you wouldn't need to make it. You'd already have trust. Instead, both sides will view themselves as disadvantaged. That's how you got into this mess. You can do it anyway, and live with the fact that you expect it to be a waste. Sometimes that touches off a virtuous cycle. Sometimes it reinforces a vicious one. There's no way to know beforehand.
- nerdponx 3y ago
  The question is: is it worth it? How far do you have to degrade yourself before you decide that the other person won't come around? Maybe it's better to just split and spend your effort elsewhere.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - yawgmoth 3y ago
    Degrade is an interesting word. I am comfortable changing for others to make them comfortable because the behavior is not about me and I simply know myself a enough to not mind.
  - thelittleone 3y ago
    Super important point. And I'd say not even about degrading but more about deviating from own true self. In relationships, the need for security / protection is often measured in the degree of sacrifice the partner is willing to offer up. The problem is it's a temporary effect as this new sacrifice will at some point becomes the new baseline. I used to sacrifice too much thinking this was how to express love, but often it's counter productive. Either becoming a crutch for the partner or completely losing a sense of self. Example is phone messages. My girl used to get insecure and ask to see them, I had nothing to hide but obliged. Until I recognise this was feeding insecurity and crossing boundaries. I changed my perspective and the next time I said no. That was met with "arr you hiding something" (i wasnt) but explained concept of sovereignty. She stopped asking. It certainly puts the responsibility on her in that case to deal with her past issues rather than me being a bandaid for them. That's one example, and I'm just as often the one doing the wrong in my relationship. Interesting learning experiences. But me taking this firmer position has been very important in my wellness.
m463 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma
- SeriousM 3y ago
  You don't put labor at the same level as imprisonment, aren't you? You're free to leave the employer. If you want to sacrifice your life/free to to gain something in the specific target area you already know that this behavior is expected and usual there. Labor is only imprisonment if you degrade yourself to it.
  - m463 3y ago
    sorry should have added more context, this isn't about prison. It's game theory about limits of cooperation in low trust environments. "The prisoner's dilemma is a game theory thought experiment that involves two rational agents, each of whom can cooperate for mutual benefit or betray their partner ("defect") for individual reward"
jahewson 3y ago
> it's not appropriate for the disadvantaged side to be making sacrifices. No it totally is. The entire point in it being a sacrifice is that it comes at some cost and it’s not something you have to do. If you’re basically forced to do it, it’s not a sacrifice. If it’s no sweat of your back, it’s not a sacrifice. This applies to both parties. There’s no one-dimensional thing called “power”. If there was then there would be 100% absolutely nothing you could do about the situation.
- MichaelZuo 3y ago
  Agree, this happens all the time in the real world, in fact close to the norm in some situations. e.g. Secretary messes up bosses' calendar/email/etc... really badly, usually with the help of a computer, and has to work overtime to fix it, without extra compensation.
  - sublinear 3y ago
    That's not sacrifice.
    - MichaelZuo 3y ago
      Because...?
    - notnaut 3y ago
      Sure it is. Fucking up is part of a job. If you’re working 9-5 on the clock, you don’t have to fix shit after 5. Choosing to stick around to fix your mistake off hours without pay when you could do it the next day or take comp time later is a sacrifice of your time/money.
      - wahnfrieden 3y ago
        That’s wage theft. It’s criminal to expect or not compensate for (unless salaried which is free season for exploitation)
      - ako 3y ago
sph 3y ago
> If trust has been damaged, it might take more than just talk to repair it. You may need to give the other person part of what they want as a gesture of good will. Reminds me of mob movies. If one of your guys killed the rival's daughter, to avoid a war the best you can do is meet the rival, be sorry, say you should've been more vigilant and offer your guy or two (the sacrifice) so they can punish them and extract revenge.
roguas 3y ago
At a point of sacrifice I would put breaks and evaluate utility and future of relationship. If we have reached a place where I am expected to be on negative return, hm it requires some roadmap.

marcod 3y ago

I agree, to phrase it a little different, you have to make yourself vulnerable to repair a connection. Ideally, both sides will :)

donw 3y ago

You are correct. Words are cheap, and trust is expensive to repair, if it can be repaired at all.

innagadadavida 3y ago

As a software engineer in a fast paced high expectations team, I’ve come to realize writing tests is a good way to show this charitable attitude especially when you are new and have little knowledge and little leverage.

bmelton 3y ago

One should also expect it to take time. Perhaps the best analogy I've heard is that trust is a glass jar -- it can be slowly diminished or emptied out all at once (or the jar could indeed shatter), but absent extreme circumstances, the way in which it is usually built is by adding one marble of trust at a time and without doing anything to damage the trust until the jar is full.

jfengel 3y ago

If you trusted that a sacrifice would be received, you wouldn't need to make it. You'd already have trust. Instead, both sides will view themselves as disadvantaged. That's how you got into this mess. You can do it anyway, and live with the fact that you expect it to be a waste. Sometimes that touches off a virtuous cycle. Sometimes it reinforces a vicious one. There's no way to know beforehand.

nerdponx 3y ago
The question is: is it worth it? How far do you have to degrade yourself before you decide that the other person won't come around? Maybe it's better to just split and spend your effort elsewhere.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- yawgmoth 3y ago
  Degrade is an interesting word. I am comfortable changing for others to make them comfortable because the behavior is not about me and I simply know myself a enough to not mind.
- thelittleone 3y ago
  Super important point. And I'd say not even about degrading but more about deviating from own true self. In relationships, the need for security / protection is often measured in the degree of sacrifice the partner is willing to offer up. The problem is it's a temporary effect as this new sacrifice will at some point becomes the new baseline. I used to sacrifice too much thinking this was how to express love, but often it's counter productive. Either becoming a crutch for the partner or completely losing a sense of self. Example is phone messages. My girl used to get insecure and ask to see them, I had nothing to hide but obliged. Until I recognise this was feeding insecurity and crossing boundaries. I changed my perspective and the next time I said no. That was met with "arr you hiding something" (i wasnt) but explained concept of sovereignty. She stopped asking. It certainly puts the responsibility on her in that case to deal with her past issues rather than me being a bandaid for them. That's one example, and I'm just as often the one doing the wrong in my relationship. Interesting learning experiences. But me taking this firmer position has been very important in my wellness.

m463 3y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma

SeriousM 3y ago
You don't put labor at the same level as imprisonment, aren't you? You're free to leave the employer. If you want to sacrifice your life/free to to gain something in the specific target area you already know that this behavior is expected and usual there. Labor is only imprisonment if you degrade yourself to it.
- m463 3y ago
  sorry should have added more context, this isn't about prison. It's game theory about limits of cooperation in low trust environments. "The prisoner's dilemma is a game theory thought experiment that involves two rational agents, each of whom can cooperate for mutual benefit or betray their partner ("defect") for individual reward"

jahewson 3y ago

> it's not appropriate for the disadvantaged side to be making sacrifices. No it totally is. The entire point in it being a sacrifice is that it comes at some cost and it’s not something you have to do. If you’re basically forced to do it, it’s not a sacrifice. If it’s no sweat of your back, it’s not a sacrifice. This applies to both parties. There’s no one-dimensional thing called “power”. If there was then there would be 100% absolutely nothing you could do about the situation.

MichaelZuo 3y ago
Agree, this happens all the time in the real world, in fact close to the norm in some situations. e.g. Secretary messes up bosses' calendar/email/etc... really badly, usually with the help of a computer, and has to work overtime to fix it, without extra compensation.
- sublinear 3y ago
  That's not sacrifice.
  - MichaelZuo 3y ago
    Because...?
  - notnaut 3y ago
    Sure it is. Fucking up is part of a job. If you’re working 9-5 on the clock, you don’t have to fix shit after 5. Choosing to stick around to fix your mistake off hours without pay when you could do it the next day or take comp time later is a sacrifice of your time/money.
    - wahnfrieden 3y ago
      That’s wage theft. It’s criminal to expect or not compensate for (unless salaried which is free season for exploitation)
    - ako 3y ago

sph 3y ago

> If trust has been damaged, it might take more than just talk to repair it. You may need to give the other person part of what they want as a gesture of good will. Reminds me of mob movies. If one of your guys killed the rival's daughter, to avoid a war the best you can do is meet the rival, be sorry, say you should've been more vigilant and offer your guy or two (the sacrifice) so they can punish them and extract revenge.

roguas 3y ago

At a point of sacrifice I would put breaks and evaluate utility and future of relationship. If we have reached a place where I am expected to be on negative return, hm it requires some roadmap.