6 ms·

I guess that its not clear to me what structural difficulties women would face if they want to be a chess GM. I acknowledge this may be due to a lack of sensit

I guess that its not clear to me what structural difficulties women would face if they want to be a chess GM. I acknowledge this may be due to a lack of sensitivity or insight on my part. So given this statement: > excessively male-dominated for systemic reasons I am asking: what are those systemic reasons.

jacquesm 3y ago
For starters, not everybody has a supportive set of parents that would encourage their daughters to go and play chess, which is still - unfortunately - seen as a 'boys thing'. The Botez sisters are probably the most visible advocates of women chess right now and that's because their father was very supportive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandra_Botez https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandra_Botez https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Botez https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Botez But they already had their share of sexism and misogyny directed at them. And that gets us to point 2: even if you have a supportive family, the kind of crap you will encounter might well put you off your chess career. Nobody likes to be harassed. So then it becomes a numbers game: out of 1,000,000 men and 1,000,000 women say the original distribution of the talents required for chess are evenly distributed, pretty much all of the men interested in the game will find support and their chances of being harassed are slim. Most of them will rise to their level of competence. But for the women it is different. The vast bulk will never make it through the first filter, and if they do they will have to run a gauntlet to get to the point where they have enough of a rating to get some visibility and more support in the form of coaching. So only a fraction of them will rise to their level of competence. And that fraction is so incredibly small (about 1:50) that the chances of throwing out the female world champion approach certainty. 98% of the female talent in chess never gets enough of a chance. They either lack early support or they end up being discouraged later on by incidents. Does that explain it?
- xyzzy123 3y ago
  I'm still not sure! But I could absolutely believe it, it's plausible. A good explanation should account for the fact that Russia and China produce proportionally more female GMs. I wonder if the level of toxicity / harassment experienced by female players is any different in those countries or to what degree parents are more supportive of their daughters learning chess.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    The state there is more supportive. Kids are tested and if they show promise in some sports domain that gets full power behind it because that is international prestige.
    - xyzzy123 3y ago
      Thanks for being patient with me. From this point of view GMs are made by a system that provides high quality coaching and training. You can't do it by yourself! and that this system is not providing adequate support to girls and women. I can believe that. I think I was ascribing too much weight to personal agency in the novice -> GM pipeline.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        It is like any other sport in that sense, a completely isolated genius without access to books and coaching is not going to automatically become a GM, it starts with family support, then club support and finally individual support from other top level players, and sometimes former players, and some form of sponsoring or personal wealth to free up your time. This is instrumental in becoming really good, beyond a mid level ELO rating. I was pretty fanatical about chess until 17 or so, had a friend who was totally immersed in chess and I had a neighbor at my dads place who was a very strong player (master iirc, who I only beat once at the ripe old age of 8 or so but it completely blew his mind :) ). My school friend is still active ( https://ratings.fide.com/profile/1001396 https://ratings.fide.com/profile/1001396, 2223 ELO rating) and in spite of dedicating a lifetime to chess his highest ranking was 2376 (which is extremely good), he never even got to 'grand master' and he's the strongest player that I've played regularly as a kid. But I realized that I would have to choose: technology, music or chess and technology won out because it seemed to have the biggest potential for generating income. Chess always was just a game to me, I never wanted to study opening books (which I considered cheating, what's the point in memorizing a whole raft of openings, I still believe you're supposed to pit your wits against your opponent, not to memorize 100's of standard openings that you did not come up with yourself and that is table stakes), so I tuned out. But for a year or so I felt that vibe and was really in love with the game. Fortunately Arno was much stronger than I was so he did me a great service (and I was his punchbag which helped him train his opening repertoire). I think we did 20:1 or worse in win rate but when I won it felt pretty sweet. Chess is super intense. And if you want to be any good at all you need every little advantage. For the top (anybody ranked Fide master or above) chess is your life as long as you are active.
- psychphysic 3y ago
  I don't see the structural issues, dad's not being supportive is not structural. Sexism could be, but it's everywhere my experience of the chess community is that it's less than say for women's football.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    What you see or do not see doesn't really matter all that much, what matters is that almost all of the top players in chess (and in any sports, really) come from supportive environments besides having won the genetic lottery in one way or another. And if you think that the sexism is less in the chess community than in women's football I'm going to have to part with saying that I wished that I had evidence that that is the case but unfortunately it isn't. The chess world is - alas - no better than any other sport in this respect and that alone makes a good case for having a women's league, when you're doing something at the top of your abilities the last thing you need is to have that sort of thing on your mind to keep you off your best game. Note that there are other sports where the risks to female participants and sexism are off the scale compared to both chess and women's football (properly: women's soccer in English but never mind that) such as gymnastics.
    - psychphysic 3y ago
      Ultimately seems everyone agrees a women's category is helpful. The question is should transwomen be allowed in? I can see the argument for excluding them there appears little value as they can compete fairly in the Open category. I don't think there is any benefit to the women's category to allow transwomen join. I think transwomen see they being allowed in as beneficial to themselves.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        It is a very tricky problem and it lays bare a lot of the societal issues around trans people. For instance, one problem here is that if a person that grows up as a boy transitions as a teen and they've been into chess since childhood that would already give them a massive advantage compared to the rest of the women in the competition because of the advantage that men have if they want to go into professional level chess. A girl born as a girl would have to fight for that much, much harder and this would go at the expense of their eventual rating. Chess, like playing the violin is usually - but not always, there are also late-bloomers - is a thing where the foundation is laid when you are very young, think five or six and then with a steady progression in level and coaching as you get older until you reach your peak. I'm not sure what the answer is. I'm super sympathetic to trans rights but I would like to see a more constructive approach where this stuff is worked out in dialogue and with reason rather than just to see a focus on 'rights'. It is a game and a career and being able to switch from one side to the other can give an unfair advantage, something that trans women would have to be aware of, and that given that sport is first and foremost about fairness rather than winning should lead to some kind of compromise where everybody agrees that the new setup is a fair one and which aims for maximum inclusivity.

jacquesm 3y ago

For starters, not everybody has a supportive set of parents that would encourage their daughters to go and play chess, which is still - unfortunately - seen as a 'boys thing'. The Botez sisters are probably the most visible advocates of women chess right now and that's because their father was very supportive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandra_Botez https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandra_Botez https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Botez https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Botez But they already had their share of sexism and misogyny directed at them. And that gets us to point 2: even if you have a supportive family, the kind of crap you will encounter might well put you off your chess career. Nobody likes to be harassed. So then it becomes a numbers game: out of 1,000,000 men and 1,000,000 women say the original distribution of the talents required for chess are evenly distributed, pretty much all of the men interested in the game will find support and their chances of being harassed are slim. Most of them will rise to their level of competence. But for the women it is different. The vast bulk will never make it through the first filter, and if they do they will have to run a gauntlet to get to the point where they have enough of a rating to get some visibility and more support in the form of coaching. So only a fraction of them will rise to their level of competence. And that fraction is so incredibly small (about 1:50) that the chances of throwing out the female world champion approach certainty. 98% of the female talent in chess never gets enough of a chance. They either lack early support or they end up being discouraged later on by incidents. Does that explain it?

xyzzy123 3y ago
I'm still not sure! But I could absolutely believe it, it's plausible. A good explanation should account for the fact that Russia and China produce proportionally more female GMs. I wonder if the level of toxicity / harassment experienced by female players is any different in those countries or to what degree parents are more supportive of their daughters learning chess.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  The state there is more supportive. Kids are tested and if they show promise in some sports domain that gets full power behind it because that is international prestige.
  - xyzzy123 3y ago
    Thanks for being patient with me. From this point of view GMs are made by a system that provides high quality coaching and training. You can't do it by yourself! and that this system is not providing adequate support to girls and women. I can believe that. I think I was ascribing too much weight to personal agency in the novice -> GM pipeline.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      It is like any other sport in that sense, a completely isolated genius without access to books and coaching is not going to automatically become a GM, it starts with family support, then club support and finally individual support from other top level players, and sometimes former players, and some form of sponsoring or personal wealth to free up your time. This is instrumental in becoming really good, beyond a mid level ELO rating. I was pretty fanatical about chess until 17 or so, had a friend who was totally immersed in chess and I had a neighbor at my dads place who was a very strong player (master iirc, who I only beat once at the ripe old age of 8 or so but it completely blew his mind :) ). My school friend is still active ( https://ratings.fide.com/profile/1001396 https://ratings.fide.com/profile/1001396, 2223 ELO rating) and in spite of dedicating a lifetime to chess his highest ranking was 2376 (which is extremely good), he never even got to 'grand master' and he's the strongest player that I've played regularly as a kid. But I realized that I would have to choose: technology, music or chess and technology won out because it seemed to have the biggest potential for generating income. Chess always was just a game to me, I never wanted to study opening books (which I considered cheating, what's the point in memorizing a whole raft of openings, I still believe you're supposed to pit your wits against your opponent, not to memorize 100's of standard openings that you did not come up with yourself and that is table stakes), so I tuned out. But for a year or so I felt that vibe and was really in love with the game. Fortunately Arno was much stronger than I was so he did me a great service (and I was his punchbag which helped him train his opening repertoire). I think we did 20:1 or worse in win rate but when I won it felt pretty sweet. Chess is super intense. And if you want to be any good at all you need every little advantage. For the top (anybody ranked Fide master or above) chess is your life as long as you are active.
psychphysic 3y ago
I don't see the structural issues, dad's not being supportive is not structural. Sexism could be, but it's everywhere my experience of the chess community is that it's less than say for women's football.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  What you see or do not see doesn't really matter all that much, what matters is that almost all of the top players in chess (and in any sports, really) come from supportive environments besides having won the genetic lottery in one way or another. And if you think that the sexism is less in the chess community than in women's football I'm going to have to part with saying that I wished that I had evidence that that is the case but unfortunately it isn't. The chess world is - alas - no better than any other sport in this respect and that alone makes a good case for having a women's league, when you're doing something at the top of your abilities the last thing you need is to have that sort of thing on your mind to keep you off your best game. Note that there are other sports where the risks to female participants and sexism are off the scale compared to both chess and women's football (properly: women's soccer in English but never mind that) such as gymnastics.
  - psychphysic 3y ago
    Ultimately seems everyone agrees a women's category is helpful. The question is should transwomen be allowed in? I can see the argument for excluding them there appears little value as they can compete fairly in the Open category. I don't think there is any benefit to the women's category to allow transwomen join. I think transwomen see they being allowed in as beneficial to themselves.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      It is a very tricky problem and it lays bare a lot of the societal issues around trans people. For instance, one problem here is that if a person that grows up as a boy transitions as a teen and they've been into chess since childhood that would already give them a massive advantage compared to the rest of the women in the competition because of the advantage that men have if they want to go into professional level chess. A girl born as a girl would have to fight for that much, much harder and this would go at the expense of their eventual rating. Chess, like playing the violin is usually - but not always, there are also late-bloomers - is a thing where the foundation is laid when you are very young, think five or six and then with a steady progression in level and coaching as you get older until you reach your peak. I'm not sure what the answer is. I'm super sympathetic to trans rights but I would like to see a more constructive approach where this stuff is worked out in dialogue and with reason rather than just to see a focus on 'rights'. It is a game and a career and being able to switch from one side to the other can give an unfair advantage, something that trans women would have to be aware of, and that given that sport is first and foremost about fairness rather than winning should lead to some kind of compromise where everybody agrees that the new setup is a fair one and which aims for maximum inclusivity.