8 ms·

FIDE bans transwomen from Women's Chess Events

14 points by psychphysic 3y ago

phs318u 3y ago
Why are there even men’s and women’s chess events? Are our brains so different that we can’t play chess against each other? As a layperson that sounds nuts. Also, I heard that at the next world swimming championships there’ll be an “open” category which will accept anybody. I suspect that this will increasingly become a thing in certain competitive events.
- hocuspocus 3y ago
  > Why are there even men’s and women’s chess events? There are no men's chess tournaments, see Judit Polgár for instance. As for why there are women specific events, it's for the same reason there are women's tech meetups and conferences.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    It's such a pity she never managed to break through to the top 10, that would have done wonders for women playing chess around the world.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- jpmoral 3y ago
  Not men's and women's events, open and women's. Women's events were instituted to help attract and keep girls and women playing. They tend to drop out at a certain age because of a negative environment. https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/30/sport/anna-cramling-chess-streamer-women-spt-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/30/sport/anna-cramling-chess...
- whatscooking 3y ago
  [dead]
- jacquesm 3y ago
  For in-person events: because being harassed is annoying/dangerous. https://www.chess.com/news/view/women-chess-players-publish-open-letter-denouncing-sexist-behavior https://www.chess.com/news/view/women-chess-players-publish-... For online only events: because otherwise many of the would-be contender women won't even bother because there is no way they're going to get close to the top. Chess is still very much male dominated, there are more and more women players but they are still a small minority compared to the number of men. Out of about 2000 GMs 40(!) are women. I believe Hou Yifan is the world top female player and she's at https://ratings.fide.com/profile/8602980 https://ratings.fide.com/profile/8602980 So it makes perfect sense to have women only contests and it also makes perfect sense to allow the women that want to to compete with the men (for ELO reasons alone).
- zdimension 3y ago
  Plainly, to give women a chance in a field that is excessively male-dominated for systemic reasons. Not saying this was a good or bad idea. Not that women are less capable than men at playing chess, but boys were historically way more encouraged than girls to partake in "intellectual" activities such as learning, playing, and mastering chess. Obviously the end result is that you get way more men than women that are good at chess. It's a bit like noticing that the most impactful people in the history of science were (mostly) men. Men are not inherently smarter, but it's a bit easier to do stuff when you can get yourself an education instead of getting married at 20 and raising the kids.
  - xyzzy123 3y ago
    Women are get more degrees than men nearly everywhere in the west, hardly anybody gets married before 25, where are all the GMs? (I'm not disputing that there may be systemic factors keeping women out of chess or holding them back from performing at higher levels but the reasons you highlighted don't seem like the right ones).
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      Was there some point you were trying to make?
      - xyzzy123 3y ago
        I guess that its not clear to me what structural difficulties women would face if they want to be a chess GM. I acknowledge this may be due to a lack of sensitivity or insight on my part. So given this statement: > excessively male-dominated for systemic reasons I am asking: what are those systemic reasons.
        jacquesm 3y ago
        For starters, not everybody has a supportive set of parents that would encourage their daughters to go and play chess, which is still - unfortunately - seen as a 'boys thing'. The Botez sisters are probably the most visible advocates of women chess right now and that's because their father was very supportive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandra_Botez https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandra_Botez https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Botez https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Botez But they already had their share of sexism and misogyny directed at them. And that gets us to point 2: even if you have a supportive family, the kind of crap you will encounter might well put you off your chess career. Nobody likes to be harassed. So then it becomes a numbers game: out of 1,000,000 men and 1,000,000 women say the original distribution of the talents required for chess are evenly distributed, pretty much all of the men interested in the game will find support and their chances of being harassed are slim. Most of them will rise to their level of competence. But for the women it is different. The vast bulk will never make it through the first filter, and if they do they will have to run a gauntlet to get to the point where they have enough of a rating to get some visibility and more support in the form of coaching. So only a fraction of them will rise to their level of competence. And that fraction is so incredibly small (about 1:50) that the chances of throwing out the female world champion approach certainty. 98% of the female talent in chess never gets enough of a chance. They either lack early support or they end up being discouraged later on by incidents. Does that explain it?
sverona 3y ago
It's clearly the bone density. /s /s /s
- zdimension 3y ago
  I mean, have you seen the shape of the pawns? It appeals to the male fantasy.
schappim 3y ago
One of the main arguments in the broader sports realm against trans women participating in women's divisions pertains to physical advantages due to testosterone levels and other physiological differences. This argument doesn't hold water here. At face value it seems silly to have gender specific events, but I guess a valid reason might be to encourage participation.
- womche 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    It is very much also about safety. Plenty of incidents in the chess world.
- psychphysic 3y ago
  It's for participation, much of the world has very strong women players. But not strong enough to do them justice in the open league. There might be brain differences that account for this a controversial one I've seen argued is that some autistic traits can be useful for chess training and men then to have those traits in greater numbers. That argument was made jokingly at a college chess club by one of the women, but given the overlap between autism and transgenderism I wonder if it's amplified?
  - sverona 3y ago
    There's an argument to be made that ASD suffers from a severe selection bias wrt gender, and that its high incidence in late-transitioning women is actually the true base rate.
    - psychphysic 3y ago
      Not sure I follow although interested. Is the hypothesis that ASD is only over represented in male to female transitioners and do so younger but when all those have transitioned are considered there is no over representation of ASD? It make be hard to pick apart since ASD male to female rates are so lopsided.
ClassyJacket 3y ago
[flagged]
- zdimension 3y ago
  Which is not what this article is about, though, men are already not expected to play at women's events; this is a decision about trans women
  - womche 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
womche 3y ago
[flagged]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
blenger 3y ago
[flagged]

14 points by psychphysic 3y ago

Why are there even men’s and women’s chess events? Are our brains so different that we can’t play chess against each other? As a layperson that sounds nuts. Also, I heard that at the next world swimming championships there’ll be an “open” category which will accept anybody. I suspect that this will increasingly become a thing in certain competitive events.

hocuspocus 3y ago
> Why are there even men’s and women’s chess events? There are no men's chess tournaments, see Judit Polgár for instance. As for why there are women specific events, it's for the same reason there are women's tech meetups and conferences.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  It's such a pity she never managed to break through to the top 10, that would have done wonders for women playing chess around the world.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
jpmoral 3y ago
Not men's and women's events, open and women's. Women's events were instituted to help attract and keep girls and women playing. They tend to drop out at a certain age because of a negative environment. https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/30/sport/anna-cramling-chess-streamer-women-spt-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/30/sport/anna-cramling-chess...
whatscooking 3y ago
[dead]
jacquesm 3y ago
For in-person events: because being harassed is annoying/dangerous. https://www.chess.com/news/view/women-chess-players-publish-open-letter-denouncing-sexist-behavior https://www.chess.com/news/view/women-chess-players-publish-... For online only events: because otherwise many of the would-be contender women won't even bother because there is no way they're going to get close to the top. Chess is still very much male dominated, there are more and more women players but they are still a small minority compared to the number of men. Out of about 2000 GMs 40(!) are women. I believe Hou Yifan is the world top female player and she's at https://ratings.fide.com/profile/8602980 https://ratings.fide.com/profile/8602980 So it makes perfect sense to have women only contests and it also makes perfect sense to allow the women that want to to compete with the men (for ELO reasons alone).
zdimension 3y ago
Plainly, to give women a chance in a field that is excessively male-dominated for systemic reasons. Not saying this was a good or bad idea. Not that women are less capable than men at playing chess, but boys were historically way more encouraged than girls to partake in "intellectual" activities such as learning, playing, and mastering chess. Obviously the end result is that you get way more men than women that are good at chess. It's a bit like noticing that the most impactful people in the history of science were (mostly) men. Men are not inherently smarter, but it's a bit easier to do stuff when you can get yourself an education instead of getting married at 20 and raising the kids.
- xyzzy123 3y ago
  Women are get more degrees than men nearly everywhere in the west, hardly anybody gets married before 25, where are all the GMs? (I'm not disputing that there may be systemic factors keeping women out of chess or holding them back from performing at higher levels but the reasons you highlighted don't seem like the right ones).
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Was there some point you were trying to make?
    - xyzzy123 3y ago
      I guess that its not clear to me what structural difficulties women would face if they want to be a chess GM. I acknowledge this may be due to a lack of sensitivity or insight on my part. So given this statement: > excessively male-dominated for systemic reasons I am asking: what are those systemic reasons.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        For starters, not everybody has a supportive set of parents that would encourage their daughters to go and play chess, which is still - unfortunately - seen as a 'boys thing'. The Botez sisters are probably the most visible advocates of women chess right now and that's because their father was very supportive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandra_Botez https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandra_Botez https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Botez https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Botez But they already had their share of sexism and misogyny directed at them. And that gets us to point 2: even if you have a supportive family, the kind of crap you will encounter might well put you off your chess career. Nobody likes to be harassed. So then it becomes a numbers game: out of 1,000,000 men and 1,000,000 women say the original distribution of the talents required for chess are evenly distributed, pretty much all of the men interested in the game will find support and their chances of being harassed are slim. Most of them will rise to their level of competence. But for the women it is different. The vast bulk will never make it through the first filter, and if they do they will have to run a gauntlet to get to the point where they have enough of a rating to get some visibility and more support in the form of coaching. So only a fraction of them will rise to their level of competence. And that fraction is so incredibly small (about 1:50) that the chances of throwing out the female world champion approach certainty. 98% of the female talent in chess never gets enough of a chance. They either lack early support or they end up being discouraged later on by incidents. Does that explain it?

sverona 3y ago

It's clearly the bone density. /s /s /s

zdimension 3y ago
I mean, have you seen the shape of the pawns? It appeals to the male fantasy.

schappim 3y ago

One of the main arguments in the broader sports realm against trans women participating in women's divisions pertains to physical advantages due to testosterone levels and other physiological differences. This argument doesn't hold water here. At face value it seems silly to have gender specific events, but I guess a valid reason might be to encourage participation.

womche 3y ago
[flagged]
- jacquesm 3y ago
  It is very much also about safety. Plenty of incidents in the chess world.
psychphysic 3y ago
It's for participation, much of the world has very strong women players. But not strong enough to do them justice in the open league. There might be brain differences that account for this a controversial one I've seen argued is that some autistic traits can be useful for chess training and men then to have those traits in greater numbers. That argument was made jokingly at a college chess club by one of the women, but given the overlap between autism and transgenderism I wonder if it's amplified?
- sverona 3y ago
  There's an argument to be made that ASD suffers from a severe selection bias wrt gender, and that its high incidence in late-transitioning women is actually the true base rate.
  - psychphysic 3y ago
    Not sure I follow although interested. Is the hypothesis that ASD is only over represented in male to female transitioners and do so younger but when all those have transitioned are considered there is no over representation of ASD? It make be hard to pick apart since ASD male to female rates are so lopsided.

ClassyJacket 3y ago

[flagged]

zdimension 3y ago
Which is not what this article is about, though, men are already not expected to play at women's events; this is a decision about trans women
- womche 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

womche 3y ago

[flagged]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

blenger 3y ago

[flagged]