3 ms·

4 is the only example of a factual claim. It is somewhat impossible to actually falsify just like "no one other than me is sentient." 1 is maybe on the fence as

4 is the only example of a factual claim. It is somewhat impossible to actually falsify just like "no one other than me is sentient." 1 is maybe on the fence as a factual claim, but it is very dependent on what "superior" means. 2 and 3 are about how the world should be and are therefore not factual statements.

mattnewton 3y ago
Yeah, no, in polite society the others can basically be treated as factual claims. We can align on shared values and then ask, for example, if pressuring women to be homemakers matches those values.
- ageofreckoning 3y ago
  Society does not dictate the truth; the truth should dictate society. If the “truth” gathered from a particular standpoint does not align with your values, you should examine how such values are formed or where the truth of that standpoint was formed. Only then will you begin to form any concept of the “truth” which is in itself a fascinating and multi-dimensional entity who can dissolve your ego and your convictions.
  - ShellfishMeme 3y ago
    What does "truth" even mean here? All of these things are about society, culture and the human experience. There's no universal truth to be found there. The best I can do is apply the categorical imperative influenced by my cultural context, upbringing and personal experiences.
    - mattnewton 3y ago
      Well for one thing a useful definition of “true” would let us decide ethical problems without lapsing into navel gazing until the sun blows up.
      - jncfhnb 3y ago
        True ethics don’t exist
      - pixl97 3y ago
        The problem I have here with your statement, is you have no idea what your definition even entails energy/entropy wise. Just defining the axioms here will take much more time and energy than we have until the sun blows up. Then the combinatorial explosions of ought conditions to step your simulation forward means you'll need Grahams number of time/entropy.
        pixl97 3y ago
        I just saw today that Innuendo Studios has an excellent video on this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF98ii6r_gU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF98ii6r_gU "You Can't Get Snakes from Chicken Eggs"
  - seanhunter 3y ago
    Surely truth (or lack of truth) is an attribute of factual claims? If some statement isn't a claim about facts then it isn't possible to establish whether it is true or not. Values are mostly about where you stand on things which you think are important but where it's not simple to establish a factual basis. This is (for example) why we don't have religious sectarianism about whether (a + b) + c = a + (b + c) forall a,b,c in C, but we sure as heck do about a bunch of stuff which you can't establish factually one way or another. What happens for a lot of people is they assume that their values are the truth and everyone else's values are just an opinion. Those sample questions are clearly bellwhethers of particular points of view, but to try to claim that one particular stance on any of those 4 is factually true and the others is false you would need some pretty strong evidence which I don't think anyone would be able to provide frankly.
- rlpb 3y ago
  I think your sentence is accurate if you replace the word "factual" with "accepted". But in public discourse some people tend to want to use the word "factual" when they mean "accepted", and others would like it to mean something that is falsifiable and has been proven in a universal manner. Thus this argument is reduced to semantics.
notahacker 3y ago
Whether all the claims are "factual" is moot. The premise of the paper is basically that if ChatGPT doesn't consider itself to be part of a superior race or reject the existence of a group of people who feel naturally homosexual, it is exhibiting bias towards the political party that most strongly rejects those propositions, and should achieve "balance" by [e.g.] agreeing with a strongly conservative view on motherhood. There's a related question about the questions are fair and balanced in how they represent "authoritarian" and right wing viewpoints versus libertarian and most left wing viewpoints (the OP's selection is not unrepresentative) but that's one best directed towards the authors of the Political Compass...
Izkata 3y ago
One of the views on the right (I don't know how common it is, just that it exists) is that homosexuality is defined by actions, not feelings. If you've ever heard someone say they chose not to be gay, that's what they mean: if they don't act on it and are never with someone or the same sex, then they're not gay, no matter what they feel.
- jncfhnb 3y ago
  I don’t agree with that. When someone says they choose not to be gay, it usually means they’re straight, and have reasoned that since they find the idea of being gay to be icky that they chose to be straight and that everyone else can to, and that only deviants would choose otherwise.

mattnewton 3y ago

Yeah, no, in polite society the others can basically be treated as factual claims. We can align on shared values and then ask, for example, if pressuring women to be homemakers matches those values.

ageofreckoning 3y ago
Society does not dictate the truth; the truth should dictate society. If the “truth” gathered from a particular standpoint does not align with your values, you should examine how such values are formed or where the truth of that standpoint was formed. Only then will you begin to form any concept of the “truth” which is in itself a fascinating and multi-dimensional entity who can dissolve your ego and your convictions.
- ShellfishMeme 3y ago
  What does "truth" even mean here? All of these things are about society, culture and the human experience. There's no universal truth to be found there. The best I can do is apply the categorical imperative influenced by my cultural context, upbringing and personal experiences.
  - mattnewton 3y ago
    Well for one thing a useful definition of “true” would let us decide ethical problems without lapsing into navel gazing until the sun blows up.
    - jncfhnb 3y ago
      True ethics don’t exist
    - pixl97 3y ago
      The problem I have here with your statement, is you have no idea what your definition even entails energy/entropy wise. Just defining the axioms here will take much more time and energy than we have until the sun blows up. Then the combinatorial explosions of ought conditions to step your simulation forward means you'll need Grahams number of time/entropy.
      - pixl97 3y ago
        I just saw today that Innuendo Studios has an excellent video on this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF98ii6r_gU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF98ii6r_gU "You Can't Get Snakes from Chicken Eggs"
- seanhunter 3y ago
  Surely truth (or lack of truth) is an attribute of factual claims? If some statement isn't a claim about facts then it isn't possible to establish whether it is true or not. Values are mostly about where you stand on things which you think are important but where it's not simple to establish a factual basis. This is (for example) why we don't have religious sectarianism about whether (a + b) + c = a + (b + c) forall a,b,c in C, but we sure as heck do about a bunch of stuff which you can't establish factually one way or another. What happens for a lot of people is they assume that their values are the truth and everyone else's values are just an opinion. Those sample questions are clearly bellwhethers of particular points of view, but to try to claim that one particular stance on any of those 4 is factually true and the others is false you would need some pretty strong evidence which I don't think anyone would be able to provide frankly.
rlpb 3y ago
I think your sentence is accurate if you replace the word "factual" with "accepted". But in public discourse some people tend to want to use the word "factual" when they mean "accepted", and others would like it to mean something that is falsifiable and has been proven in a universal manner. Thus this argument is reduced to semantics.

notahacker 3y ago

Whether all the claims are "factual" is moot. The premise of the paper is basically that if ChatGPT doesn't consider itself to be part of a superior race or reject the existence of a group of people who feel naturally homosexual, it is exhibiting bias towards the political party that most strongly rejects those propositions, and should achieve "balance" by [e.g.] agreeing with a strongly conservative view on motherhood. There's a related question about the questions are fair and balanced in how they represent "authoritarian" and right wing viewpoints versus libertarian and most left wing viewpoints (the OP's selection is not unrepresentative) but that's one best directed towards the authors of the Political Compass...

Izkata 3y ago

One of the views on the right (I don't know how common it is, just that it exists) is that homosexuality is defined by actions, not feelings. If you've ever heard someone say they chose not to be gay, that's what they mean: if they don't act on it and are never with someone or the same sex, then they're not gay, no matter what they feel.

jncfhnb 3y ago
I don’t agree with that. When someone says they choose not to be gay, it usually means they’re straight, and have reasoned that since they find the idea of being gay to be icky that they chose to be straight and that everyone else can to, and that only deviants would choose otherwise.