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> Rust, being the most likely contender to replace it, still cannot self-host What do you mean, "still cannot self-host?" You say that like it's a critical fa

> Rust, being the most likely contender to replace it, still cannot self-host What do you mean, "still cannot self-host?" You say that like it's a critical failure of the Rust project that they need and are attempting to address rather than a trivia item. Rust is perfectly happy relying on LLVM just like (checks notes) half the other languages in existence. Libraries like LLVM are precisely what the comment you quote is talking about. I'm not even sure that's true, anyway, with the cranelift backend. Someone can chime in on whether it's good enough for bootstrapping.

merlincorey 3y ago
Self Hosting your own compiler traditionally was the "end-game" of making a compile-able language. It's a sort of proof of fitness that the language can literally stand on its own. This article about Zig achieving self-hosted status in 2022[0] points out that they gained many advantages at the cost of a lot of time and effort through this process. Incidentally, they decided to self-host while also supporting LLVM because of deficiencies in LLVM (mainly speed and target limitations). This flexibility includes a separate "C" backend to compile Zig to C in order to target for example game consoles that require a specific C compiler be used. > You say that like it's a critical goal of the Rust project rather than a trivia item. In my opinion, you are overly minimizing the potential benefits to Rust and the Rust community for Rust to be self-hosted. Of course, practically, right now it doesn't matter because most people are more than happy to use the already working system. [0] https://kristoff.it/blog/zig-self-hosted-now-what/ https://kristoff.it/blog/zig-self-hosted-now-what/
- dralley 3y ago
  As I said, the cranelift backend exists, and it provides many of the same benefits such as improved compilation speed. And it's written in Rust. But it still feels like a trivia item. C compilers written in C exist, but almost nobody actually uses them. They use GCC, Clang, and MSVC, written in C++. Everybody knows that it's possible to self-host C, so the benefit of actually doing so in practice is minimal. It's obviously possible to write a Rust compiler in Rust end-to-end. Acting like it's a second tier language because actively doing so not a top focus of the community is gatekeep-y and ridiculous.
  - zer8k 3y ago
    Except gluing yourself to LLVM has it's own problems. Like, for example, any platform that LLVM doesn't support you can't support either. LLVM is great. The monoculture and smug elitism it produces is not. > Acting like it's a second tier language because actively doing so not a top focus of the community is gatekeep-y and ridiculous. It is probably one of the major reasons we won't see a Rust compiler shipped with an operating system for a very long time. That doesn't make it second tier. However, Rust fans seem to want to stick their head in the sand when their baby is criticized. I am a Rust (language) fan myself. I am just willing to criticize the language. I do not understand why the Rust community has such a volatile response to honest, valid, criticism.
    - learn-forever 3y ago
      it's a ridiculous criticism, and the insult doesn't make it less ridiculous
    - dralley 3y ago
      >It is probably one of the major reasons we won't see a Rust compiler shipped with an operating system for a very long time. Even most linux distros don't ship with GCC out of the box... much less MacOS and Windows with their respective compilers. If your standard is "Gentoo and FreeBSD will never ship it out of the box" then I'm going to 100% stand by my statement that this is weird and gatekeep-y. Especially when the Windows kernel and userspace system libraries both have Rust in them. https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/new-windows-11-build-ships-with-more-rust-based-kernel-features/ https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/new-windows-... https://www.thurrott.com/windows/282471/microsoft-is-rewriting-parts-of-the-windows-kernel-in-rust https://www.thurrott.com/windows/282471/microsoft-is-rewriti...
    - tialaramex 3y ago
      > we won't see a Rust compiler shipped with an operating system for a very long time. I can't figure out what this constraint means. My Windows laptop doesn't seem to have provided a C compiler, so, maybe that's a problem for Windows? Huh, well I guess I can buy or download a third party compiler, that's easy enough, but then, I can do that for Rust too, so, doesn't seem like a difference. Meanwhile on this Fedora machine, the Rust compiler came with the OS. So, is this not an operating system? Maybe the stuff it comes with isn't "shipped with" it somehow? And so there's no C compiler "shipped with" this operating system either, although GCC was installed too ? I just don't know what to make of such a criticism.

merlincorey 3y ago

Self Hosting your own compiler traditionally was the "end-game" of making a compile-able language. It's a sort of proof of fitness that the language can literally stand on its own. This article about Zig achieving self-hosted status in 2022[0] points out that they gained many advantages at the cost of a lot of time and effort through this process. Incidentally, they decided to self-host while also supporting LLVM because of deficiencies in LLVM (mainly speed and target limitations). This flexibility includes a separate "C" backend to compile Zig to C in order to target for example game consoles that require a specific C compiler be used. > You say that like it's a critical goal of the Rust project rather than a trivia item. In my opinion, you are overly minimizing the potential benefits to Rust and the Rust community for Rust to be self-hosted. Of course, practically, right now it doesn't matter because most people are more than happy to use the already working system. [0] https://kristoff.it/blog/zig-self-hosted-now-what/ https://kristoff.it/blog/zig-self-hosted-now-what/

dralley 3y ago
As I said, the cranelift backend exists, and it provides many of the same benefits such as improved compilation speed. And it's written in Rust. But it still feels like a trivia item. C compilers written in C exist, but almost nobody actually uses them. They use GCC, Clang, and MSVC, written in C++. Everybody knows that it's possible to self-host C, so the benefit of actually doing so in practice is minimal. It's obviously possible to write a Rust compiler in Rust end-to-end. Acting like it's a second tier language because actively doing so not a top focus of the community is gatekeep-y and ridiculous.
- zer8k 3y ago
  Except gluing yourself to LLVM has it's own problems. Like, for example, any platform that LLVM doesn't support you can't support either. LLVM is great. The monoculture and smug elitism it produces is not. > Acting like it's a second tier language because actively doing so not a top focus of the community is gatekeep-y and ridiculous. It is probably one of the major reasons we won't see a Rust compiler shipped with an operating system for a very long time. That doesn't make it second tier. However, Rust fans seem to want to stick their head in the sand when their baby is criticized. I am a Rust (language) fan myself. I am just willing to criticize the language. I do not understand why the Rust community has such a volatile response to honest, valid, criticism.
  - learn-forever 3y ago
    it's a ridiculous criticism, and the insult doesn't make it less ridiculous
  - dralley 3y ago
    >It is probably one of the major reasons we won't see a Rust compiler shipped with an operating system for a very long time. Even most linux distros don't ship with GCC out of the box... much less MacOS and Windows with their respective compilers. If your standard is "Gentoo and FreeBSD will never ship it out of the box" then I'm going to 100% stand by my statement that this is weird and gatekeep-y. Especially when the Windows kernel and userspace system libraries both have Rust in them. https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/new-windows-11-build-ships-with-more-rust-based-kernel-features/ https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/new-windows-... https://www.thurrott.com/windows/282471/microsoft-is-rewriting-parts-of-the-windows-kernel-in-rust https://www.thurrott.com/windows/282471/microsoft-is-rewriti...
  - tialaramex 3y ago
    > we won't see a Rust compiler shipped with an operating system for a very long time. I can't figure out what this constraint means. My Windows laptop doesn't seem to have provided a C compiler, so, maybe that's a problem for Windows? Huh, well I guess I can buy or download a third party compiler, that's easy enough, but then, I can do that for Rust too, so, doesn't seem like a difference. Meanwhile on this Fedora machine, the Rust compiler came with the OS. So, is this not an operating system? Maybe the stuff it comes with isn't "shipped with" it somehow? And so there's no C compiler "shipped with" this operating system either, although GCC was installed too ? I just don't know what to make of such a criticism.