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Vegetarians are really enthusiastic to use climate change as an excuse to talk about their thing. People without kids like me are really enthusiastic to tell y

Vegetarians are really enthusiastic to use climate change as an excuse to talk about their thing. People without kids like me are really enthusiastic to tell you we have done our bit by not having babies. Westerners are really enthusiastic to tell you how they exported all heavy industry to the east so it isn't their fault. The developing work insists it's inherited guilt of white Europeans (and North Americans). But everyone agrees: we look forward to someone else solving this issue, at no cost to us.

shortrounddev2 3y ago
Not having children is actually making the world a worse place. If your decision to/not to have children is about your impact on the world, you should choose to have several children
moritzwarhier 3y ago
This. Tragedy of the commons all the way down, with some "moralistic fallacy" sprinkled in. Unfortunately, the tragedy of our common earth is worse than a poisoned lake.
PretzelPirate 3y ago
> Vegetarians are really enthusiastic to use climate change as an excuse to talk about their thing. > People without kids like me are really enthusiastic to tell you we have done our bit by not having babies. > at no cost to us. It sounds like those two groups may have paid a cost. Many vegetarians like the taste and convenience of meat but give it up due to climate impact. People who don't have children may want them but don't like how humanity impacts the rest of the world.
- LatteLazy 3y ago
  I wonder how many people go vegetarian purely for climate reasons? Or partially and to what degree? And how many also do all the other things (giving up air travel, private vehicles, imported fruit and veg, concrete etc) needed to actually get down to carbon neutral? There must be some. As for not having kids, I would have liked them, but I am gay, so to say I "paid" a cost would be untrue or at least an overestimate... Cest la vie
  - myshpa 3y ago
    > I wonder how many people go vegetarian purely for climate reasons ... to what degree? The numbers are growing steadily, enough to make producers of animal products increasingly nervous. > giving up air travel, private vehicles, imported fruit and veg, concrete etc Animal agriculture is worse than transport and concrete together (not just emissions, but deforestation, biodiversity loss, eutrophication, water usage, pollution ...) We cannot avoid polluting entirely. However, we can minimize our impact as much as possible, and I'd argue that by replacing animal products with plant-based alternatives, people lose nothing while reducing their negative footprint significantly.
    - LatteLazy 3y ago
      You comment perfectly exemplifies my point I'm afraid.
m_0x 3y ago
> we look forward to someone else solving this issue, at no cost to us. At no cost and no sacrifice. Personally, I'm not going to sacrifice my car or my A/C although I know it will help reduce CO2 emissions.
- LatteLazy 3y ago
  I dread the idea that an actual, workable, enforced international plan ever comes to a vote. Because I would have to vote for it. But until then, there is literally no point at all doing anything, as an individual or a company or even a nation. So I am free to enjoy the place burning, because it will burn whether I enjoy it or not. That's the place we are at now.
  - myshpa 3y ago
    > there is literally no point at all doing anything, as an individual or a company or even a nation "We can only solve these problems with active participation by everybody, because if everyone just waits for someone else to solve the problem, then the problem doesn’t ever get solved." - internet Be the change you want to see in the world. - Mahatma Gandhi or the longer version "We but mirror the world. All the tendencies present in the outer world are to be found in the world of our body. If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him. This is the divine mystery supreme. A wonderful thing it is and the source of our happiness. We need not wait to see what others do."
WorldMaker 3y ago
This relates to the concept that most of what we are offered to combat climate change are individual, consumer-side solutions but the biggest problems can't really be solved that way, one individual at a time.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Yes, limited and uncoordinated local action will never cure global problems. At a minimum it would require some global agreement and a serious push to make it happen, such as with the CFCs and leaded gasoline.
  - myshpa 3y ago
    Meaningful global change often begins with individual actions, as they can inspire reflection, shape societal norms, and create a foundation for collective transformation. Historical examples like the civil rights movement, where individual advocates stood against injustice, paved the way for broader societal shifts and legal reforms.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      That wasn't close to global though. Are there any real global changes that started with individual actions? All I see is things that influenced at most a particular branch of the tree of culture usually limited to a country but sometimes adopted by other countries as well (for instance: slavery abolition, though even today it persists in some places so that's a partial success at best).
      - myshpa 3y ago
        The abolition of slavery is imho a significant global achievement, with its roots often found in individual acts of resistance and advocacy. However, as you rightly pointed out, it's essential to recognize that forms of modern slavery still persist today, be it through forced labor, human trafficking, or child labor. While the institutionalized systems of slavery seen in the past have largely been dismantled, the fight against modern forms of slavery should continue. > Are there any real global changes that started with individual actions? We should probably define what you mean by "real global changes" if the abolition of slavery doesn't qualify. I'll try anyway. 1. Rachael Carson's "Silent Spring": Her seminal book, "Silent Spring," wasn't just an American wake-up call but catalyzed a global environmental movement. It laid the groundwork for the creation of environmental agencies and legislation in multiple countries and sparked a broader awareness of human impacts on the environment. 2. The Tunisian Butterfly Effect: Mohamed Bouazizi's self-immolation in 2010 was a tragic act of protest against police corruption in Tunisia. This act played a significant role in the onset of the Tunisian Revolution and the subsequent wider Arab Spring, leading to significant political changes in several countries across North Africa and the Middle East. 3. The Chipko Movement from India: Starting in a small village in India in the 1970s, villagers hugged trees to prevent their felling. This non-violent resistance spread, making the Chipko movement a touchstone for environmental campaigns across Asia and beyond. 4. Nelson Mandela: While his primary focus was against apartheid in South Africa, Mandela's resilience and commitment to justice transformed him into a global symbol for resistance to oppression. His actions and teachings influenced movements and leaders around the world. 5. Greta Thunberg: Starting as a single individual protesting in front of the Swedish parliament, she inspired millions around the world to advocate for climate action. While it's yet to culminate in a universal solution, her individual act has galvanized global discourse and awareness on the issue. Each of these examples, and many more, underscores the idea that an individual or a small group's actions can create ripple effects that influence and inspire global change. Turning to the topic of veganism, it's evident that we no longer rely on animal products for our health or sustenance. When individuals transition away from these products, they often gain a clearer perspective on the vast environmental damage caused by such diets. Animal agriculture is a prime contributor to deforestation and biodiversity loss; astonishingly, animal species have witnessed a 70-90% decline in just the past 50 years. Looking ahead, we're racing against time to safeguard the remaining ecosystems, crucial for the environmental services upon which we heavily rely. If everyone were to continue consuming meat and dairy without questioning its impact, then who would advocate for the end of these environmentally destructive practices? Our innate focus on immediate needs, like our next meal, can blind us to the broader picture. It's a human tendency to resist change, especially when it involves something as personal as our diet. But we must rise above these fears, looking beyond the contents of our refrigerators, and consider the long-term well-being of our planet.

shortrounddev2 3y ago

Not having children is actually making the world a worse place. If your decision to/not to have children is about your impact on the world, you should choose to have several children

moritzwarhier 3y ago

This. Tragedy of the commons all the way down, with some "moralistic fallacy" sprinkled in. Unfortunately, the tragedy of our common earth is worse than a poisoned lake.

PretzelPirate 3y ago

> Vegetarians are really enthusiastic to use climate change as an excuse to talk about their thing. > People without kids like me are really enthusiastic to tell you we have done our bit by not having babies. > at no cost to us. It sounds like those two groups may have paid a cost. Many vegetarians like the taste and convenience of meat but give it up due to climate impact. People who don't have children may want them but don't like how humanity impacts the rest of the world.

LatteLazy 3y ago
I wonder how many people go vegetarian purely for climate reasons? Or partially and to what degree? And how many also do all the other things (giving up air travel, private vehicles, imported fruit and veg, concrete etc) needed to actually get down to carbon neutral? There must be some. As for not having kids, I would have liked them, but I am gay, so to say I "paid" a cost would be untrue or at least an overestimate... Cest la vie
- myshpa 3y ago
  > I wonder how many people go vegetarian purely for climate reasons ... to what degree? The numbers are growing steadily, enough to make producers of animal products increasingly nervous. > giving up air travel, private vehicles, imported fruit and veg, concrete etc Animal agriculture is worse than transport and concrete together (not just emissions, but deforestation, biodiversity loss, eutrophication, water usage, pollution ...) We cannot avoid polluting entirely. However, we can minimize our impact as much as possible, and I'd argue that by replacing animal products with plant-based alternatives, people lose nothing while reducing their negative footprint significantly.
  - LatteLazy 3y ago
    You comment perfectly exemplifies my point I'm afraid.

m_0x 3y ago

> we look forward to someone else solving this issue, at no cost to us. At no cost and no sacrifice. Personally, I'm not going to sacrifice my car or my A/C although I know it will help reduce CO2 emissions.

LatteLazy 3y ago
I dread the idea that an actual, workable, enforced international plan ever comes to a vote. Because I would have to vote for it. But until then, there is literally no point at all doing anything, as an individual or a company or even a nation. So I am free to enjoy the place burning, because it will burn whether I enjoy it or not. That's the place we are at now.
- myshpa 3y ago
  > there is literally no point at all doing anything, as an individual or a company or even a nation "We can only solve these problems with active participation by everybody, because if everyone just waits for someone else to solve the problem, then the problem doesn’t ever get solved." - internet Be the change you want to see in the world. - Mahatma Gandhi or the longer version "We but mirror the world. All the tendencies present in the outer world are to be found in the world of our body. If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him. This is the divine mystery supreme. A wonderful thing it is and the source of our happiness. We need not wait to see what others do."

WorldMaker 3y ago

This relates to the concept that most of what we are offered to combat climate change are individual, consumer-side solutions but the biggest problems can't really be solved that way, one individual at a time.

jacquesm 3y ago
Yes, limited and uncoordinated local action will never cure global problems. At a minimum it would require some global agreement and a serious push to make it happen, such as with the CFCs and leaded gasoline.
- myshpa 3y ago
  Meaningful global change often begins with individual actions, as they can inspire reflection, shape societal norms, and create a foundation for collective transformation. Historical examples like the civil rights movement, where individual advocates stood against injustice, paved the way for broader societal shifts and legal reforms.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    That wasn't close to global though. Are there any real global changes that started with individual actions? All I see is things that influenced at most a particular branch of the tree of culture usually limited to a country but sometimes adopted by other countries as well (for instance: slavery abolition, though even today it persists in some places so that's a partial success at best).
    - myshpa 3y ago
      The abolition of slavery is imho a significant global achievement, with its roots often found in individual acts of resistance and advocacy. However, as you rightly pointed out, it's essential to recognize that forms of modern slavery still persist today, be it through forced labor, human trafficking, or child labor. While the institutionalized systems of slavery seen in the past have largely been dismantled, the fight against modern forms of slavery should continue. > Are there any real global changes that started with individual actions? We should probably define what you mean by "real global changes" if the abolition of slavery doesn't qualify. I'll try anyway. 1. Rachael Carson's "Silent Spring": Her seminal book, "Silent Spring," wasn't just an American wake-up call but catalyzed a global environmental movement. It laid the groundwork for the creation of environmental agencies and legislation in multiple countries and sparked a broader awareness of human impacts on the environment. 2. The Tunisian Butterfly Effect: Mohamed Bouazizi's self-immolation in 2010 was a tragic act of protest against police corruption in Tunisia. This act played a significant role in the onset of the Tunisian Revolution and the subsequent wider Arab Spring, leading to significant political changes in several countries across North Africa and the Middle East. 3. The Chipko Movement from India: Starting in a small village in India in the 1970s, villagers hugged trees to prevent their felling. This non-violent resistance spread, making the Chipko movement a touchstone for environmental campaigns across Asia and beyond. 4. Nelson Mandela: While his primary focus was against apartheid in South Africa, Mandela's resilience and commitment to justice transformed him into a global symbol for resistance to oppression. His actions and teachings influenced movements and leaders around the world. 5. Greta Thunberg: Starting as a single individual protesting in front of the Swedish parliament, she inspired millions around the world to advocate for climate action. While it's yet to culminate in a universal solution, her individual act has galvanized global discourse and awareness on the issue. Each of these examples, and many more, underscores the idea that an individual or a small group's actions can create ripple effects that influence and inspire global change. Turning to the topic of veganism, it's evident that we no longer rely on animal products for our health or sustenance. When individuals transition away from these products, they often gain a clearer perspective on the vast environmental damage caused by such diets. Animal agriculture is a prime contributor to deforestation and biodiversity loss; astonishingly, animal species have witnessed a 70-90% decline in just the past 50 years. Looking ahead, we're racing against time to safeguard the remaining ecosystems, crucial for the environmental services upon which we heavily rely. If everyone were to continue consuming meat and dairy without questioning its impact, then who would advocate for the end of these environmentally destructive practices? Our innate focus on immediate needs, like our next meal, can blind us to the broader picture. It's a human tendency to resist change, especially when it involves something as personal as our diet. But we must rise above these fears, looking beyond the contents of our refrigerators, and consider the long-term well-being of our planet.