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I have not seen the value in WASM just yet. To me WASM has always looked like a Flash replacement, and there is value in that but that isn't what developers wi

I have not seen the value in WASM just yet. To me WASM has always looked like a Flash replacement, and there is value in that but that isn't what developers wish it were. Developers wish it were a JavaScript replacement, which it isn't and does not not wish to be. As a result I see nothing happening here but the disappointment and lost dreams of sad Java developers over the last 6 years. Being flamed on Reddit by desperate Java developers wishing for WASM who emotionally cannot figure out JavaScript to save their careers was the straw that broken the camel's back. I deleted my Reddit account and never looked back. Dire indications of far deeper problems not specifically related to Java, JavaScript, or WASM.

k__ 3y ago
The benefits I saw were high performance libraries in the browser and runtimes for multiple languages by just integrating WASM. Sure, not all languages, but getting Rust and C/C++ out-of-the-box for a start seems to be worth it. Also, it's an open source runtime, so if you integrated it, you get improvements from the community, which is a huge gain for small projects.
- austin-cheney 3y ago
  C++ and Rust are already open source and there isn't reason to believe applications executed as WASM are faster than near JavaScript equivalents. There is amazing advantage though to just exposing C++/Rust applications without requiring a separate installation or executable for both security and convenience, but I am not seeing much of this in the wild. I think the sand boxed nature of WASM is a bridge too far for many C++/RUST application developers who would then need to include a tremendous number of support library they take for granted outside the browser.
tvink 3y ago
>Java developers wishing for WASM who emotionally cannot figure out JavaScript to save their careers If you got flamed, I imagine it was more about tone than content :)
- austin-cheney 3y ago
  If the crowd is an echo chamber and emotions are high content is certainly more than enough to trigger negative behavior. I would think there are plenty of examples of this in a variety of venues. I can't read the news without being reminded of various examples of this.
hardware2win 3y ago
You really believe people want wasm based langs to replace js just because they cannot figure out js??
- arrowsmith 3y ago
  The more I "figure out" Javascript, the more desperate I am for something to replace it.
- austin-cheney 3y ago
  It does not matter what I believe. It only matters what people tell me.
paulgb 3y ago
The way I see it, most application software is moving to the browser (compare the number of greenfield desktop apps that show up on HN to the number of browser-based apps). In a world without WebAssembly, this would mean that all application software will be written in JavaScript. This is a bad outcome! JavaScript is a fine DSL for GUIs, but it is not a great programming language for applications, especially when you get into graphically-intensive, data-intensive, scientific, etc. software. Wasm is an out that allows developers to write the application core in another language like Rust or C++, as they would on the desktop, while still delivering software in the browser. A bunch of products are quietly doing this already. (One is in the process of a $20bn acquisition.)
- austin-cheney 3y ago
  JavaScript is bad for graphically intense application for the same reasons Java, C#, and host of other language families are bad at it, they are garbage collected languages. Garbage collection imposes a processing jitter. That is certainly a valid use case for WASM, but I am not this take hold in the wild. Again, valid use cases aside its not what most developers want to use it for.
  - Pannoniae 3y ago
    You can pause GC and pre-allocate memory in C# in addition to stack-allocating anything you want. Just because people don't do it it doesn't mean it's not possible. Of course in reality almost no one bothers because "the user can buy a newer machine anyway"-sort of thinking, sadly.
  - kaba0 3y ago
    > JavaScript is bad for graphically intense application Are they? It’s not like C++ is tossing around pixels itself, it commands the GPU to do so. Sure, there is a point where the speed at which the CPU side of data being supplied will be the bottleneck, but it is so far above typical desktop applications that it is incorrect to call managed languages unfit for graphically intensive applications (as shown by all those indie games). Also, there are many different kinds of GCs, and you can limit the max pause time to very low values for a slightly lower throughput (note: this same tradeoff will happen without a GC also, these two are very often opposite ends of the same spectrum) to the point that unless you are using special real-time kernel with all the necessary process configs, your OS’s scheduler will introduce bigger pauses.
yungporko 3y ago
let me guess, you are a full time JS dev? lol
- austin-cheney 3y ago
  If I were/weren't should that lend greater or lesser validation to the irrational behaviors of people seeking validation? Would this matter make more sense if I were motivated solely by bias?

k__ 3y ago

The benefits I saw were high performance libraries in the browser and runtimes for multiple languages by just integrating WASM. Sure, not all languages, but getting Rust and C/C++ out-of-the-box for a start seems to be worth it. Also, it's an open source runtime, so if you integrated it, you get improvements from the community, which is a huge gain for small projects.

austin-cheney 3y ago
C++ and Rust are already open source and there isn't reason to believe applications executed as WASM are faster than near JavaScript equivalents. There is amazing advantage though to just exposing C++/Rust applications without requiring a separate installation or executable for both security and convenience, but I am not seeing much of this in the wild. I think the sand boxed nature of WASM is a bridge too far for many C++/RUST application developers who would then need to include a tremendous number of support library they take for granted outside the browser.

tvink 3y ago

>Java developers wishing for WASM who emotionally cannot figure out JavaScript to save their careers If you got flamed, I imagine it was more about tone than content :)

austin-cheney 3y ago
If the crowd is an echo chamber and emotions are high content is certainly more than enough to trigger negative behavior. I would think there are plenty of examples of this in a variety of venues. I can't read the news without being reminded of various examples of this.

hardware2win 3y ago

You really believe people want wasm based langs to replace js just because they cannot figure out js??

arrowsmith 3y ago
The more I "figure out" Javascript, the more desperate I am for something to replace it.
austin-cheney 3y ago
It does not matter what I believe. It only matters what people tell me.

paulgb 3y ago

The way I see it, most application software is moving to the browser (compare the number of greenfield desktop apps that show up on HN to the number of browser-based apps). In a world without WebAssembly, this would mean that all application software will be written in JavaScript. This is a bad outcome! JavaScript is a fine DSL for GUIs, but it is not a great programming language for applications, especially when you get into graphically-intensive, data-intensive, scientific, etc. software. Wasm is an out that allows developers to write the application core in another language like Rust or C++, as they would on the desktop, while still delivering software in the browser. A bunch of products are quietly doing this already. (One is in the process of a $20bn acquisition.)

austin-cheney 3y ago
JavaScript is bad for graphically intense application for the same reasons Java, C#, and host of other language families are bad at it, they are garbage collected languages. Garbage collection imposes a processing jitter. That is certainly a valid use case for WASM, but I am not this take hold in the wild. Again, valid use cases aside its not what most developers want to use it for.
- Pannoniae 3y ago
  You can pause GC and pre-allocate memory in C# in addition to stack-allocating anything you want. Just because people don't do it it doesn't mean it's not possible. Of course in reality almost no one bothers because "the user can buy a newer machine anyway"-sort of thinking, sadly.
- kaba0 3y ago
  > JavaScript is bad for graphically intense application Are they? It’s not like C++ is tossing around pixels itself, it commands the GPU to do so. Sure, there is a point where the speed at which the CPU side of data being supplied will be the bottleneck, but it is so far above typical desktop applications that it is incorrect to call managed languages unfit for graphically intensive applications (as shown by all those indie games). Also, there are many different kinds of GCs, and you can limit the max pause time to very low values for a slightly lower throughput (note: this same tradeoff will happen without a GC also, these two are very often opposite ends of the same spectrum) to the point that unless you are using special real-time kernel with all the necessary process configs, your OS’s scheduler will introduce bigger pauses.

yungporko 3y ago

let me guess, you are a full time JS dev? lol

austin-cheney 3y ago
If I were/weren't should that lend greater or lesser validation to the irrational behaviors of people seeking validation? Would this matter make more sense if I were motivated solely by bias?