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I do not doubt that those trains will be powered by electricity (solar or wind: no one will object to either near a mine or along tracks). Similarly, if they n

by bertil 3y ago

I do not doubt that those trains will be powered by electricity (solar or wind: no one will object to either near a mine or along tracks). Similarly, if they need hydrogen as a reduction agent, they will produce it locally — i.e., not ask anyone trying to capture CO2 in the air or buy from it far away. No one is moving smelting facilities, so they’ll setup solar panels and wind farms around those. That’s why the argument of making those far away, in place known for nothing but sand and oil fields always felt disingenuous.

defrost 3y ago
> no one will object to either near a mine or along tracks > in place known for nothing but sand and oil fields Errr, just as a reality check, almost all mines impact people in some form or another, often indigenous people who never adopted advanced western lifestyles that they are directly impacted by with mines, pipelines, climate effects, etc. FWiW I'm making that statement as someone with decades as an exploration geophysicist, backend developer of https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/campaigns/metals-mining https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/campaigns/met... and someone who has negotiated on environmental impact statements with traditional landowners. In the US the proposed $64 billion half century supply Resolution Copper mine will impact people: https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/ceraweek-rio-tinto-keeps-working-build-indigenous-support-resolution-mine-2023-03-07 https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/ceraweek-rio-tin... despite being somewhere that many on HN would describe as "empty", "barren", "uninhabited", etc. Rio Tinto has stretched it's credibility with traditional owners in recent years: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/03/rio-tintos-alleged-underpayment-of-traditional-owners-of-wa-mine-area-sparks-calls-for-widespread-review https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/03/rio-t... https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/may/24/a-year-on-from-the-juukan-gorge-destruction-aboriginal-sacred-sites-remain-unprotected https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/may/24/a-yea...
- bertil 3y ago
  The mines and the tracks absolutely do. Setting up energy generation to power it on site, rather than drag more energy transport that cuts through more of the local ecosystem, doesn’t.
  - defrost 3y ago
    > Setting up energy generation to power it on site .. doesn’t Rethink that carefully - how many acres for an open pit mine? Now, how many acres for solar panels, etc. to generate power to dig that mine? If someone objects to landuse for the mine, then solar power is going to at least double the amount of land used. I'm remaining neutral here on the ethics - but don't kid yourself that there's magically no additional land clearing from onsite solar.
    - bertil 3y ago
      To extract a thousand tons, estimates are around 6,700 kWh [0]. That’s a bit less than what one of the larger windmills can produce in an hour (7.5 MW). The largest mine I know produces 25.6 million tonnes of ore per year, so (/365/24) three times that. I’m sure we can find room for three windmills over the 16.53 km^2 of that mine. [0] https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwichOmy3OOAAxU9VvEDHZV3Cg0QFnoECA4QAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcore.ac.uk%2Fdownload%2Fpdf%2F82250924.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0CdoXPJ_ug5RWzm5qxkuPZ&opi=89978449 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...

by bertil 3y ago

defrost 3y ago

> no one will object to either near a mine or along tracks > in place known for nothing but sand and oil fields Errr, just as a reality check, almost all mines impact people in some form or another, often indigenous people who never adopted advanced western lifestyles that they are directly impacted by with mines, pipelines, climate effects, etc. FWiW I'm making that statement as someone with decades as an exploration geophysicist, backend developer of https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/campaigns/metals-mining https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/campaigns/met... and someone who has negotiated on environmental impact statements with traditional landowners. In the US the proposed $64 billion half century supply Resolution Copper mine will impact people: https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/ceraweek-rio-tinto-keeps-working-build-indigenous-support-resolution-mine-2023-03-07 https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/ceraweek-rio-tin... despite being somewhere that many on HN would describe as "empty", "barren", "uninhabited", etc. Rio Tinto has stretched it's credibility with traditional owners in recent years: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/03/rio-tintos-alleged-underpayment-of-traditional-owners-of-wa-mine-area-sparks-calls-for-widespread-review https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/03/rio-t... https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/may/24/a-year-on-from-the-juukan-gorge-destruction-aboriginal-sacred-sites-remain-unprotected https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/may/24/a-yea...

bertil 3y ago
The mines and the tracks absolutely do. Setting up energy generation to power it on site, rather than drag more energy transport that cuts through more of the local ecosystem, doesn’t.
- defrost 3y ago
  > Setting up energy generation to power it on site .. doesn’t Rethink that carefully - how many acres for an open pit mine? Now, how many acres for solar panels, etc. to generate power to dig that mine? If someone objects to landuse for the mine, then solar power is going to at least double the amount of land used. I'm remaining neutral here on the ethics - but don't kid yourself that there's magically no additional land clearing from onsite solar.
  - bertil 3y ago
    To extract a thousand tons, estimates are around 6,700 kWh [0]. That’s a bit less than what one of the larger windmills can produce in an hour (7.5 MW). The largest mine I know produces 25.6 million tonnes of ore per year, so (/365/24) three times that. I’m sure we can find room for three windmills over the 16.53 km^2 of that mine. [0] https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwichOmy3OOAAxU9VvEDHZV3Cg0QFnoECA4QAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcore.ac.uk%2Fdownload%2Fpdf%2F82250924.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0CdoXPJ_ug5RWzm5qxkuPZ&opi=89978449 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...