3 ms·

I think the music scenes move away from punk tropes of "as long as you're loud and vulgar it doesn't matter that you can't actually play your instrument" has be

I think the music scenes move away from punk tropes of "as long as you're loud and vulgar it doesn't matter that you can't actually play your instrument" has been an incredible positive. Not just as a music enjoyer but in terms of setting positive examples about how to lead a fulfilling life. Angst for the sake of it is now seen as lame. Albini is a very interesting persona to me because he was largely a proponent of that style but he actually is quite talented, and more importantly seems to be extremely thoughtful.

tptacek 3y ago
The subtext I get from this is that you saw Albini as a proponent of big dumb hardcore DIY punk, and Big Black really wasn’t that, as even Christgau acknowledged. There was a lot of artistry in they way they managed to be repellent.
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  > There was a lot of artistry in they way they managed to be repellent. There was a lot of artistry in early Lou Reed too. I still think it's lame that the velvet underground not only were bad musicians but that they took pride in sounding unpracticed. That whole ethos pervaded the punk scene from the very beginning and I think a lot of Albini's choices about his vulgarity and whatnot have a lot to do with wanting to be like those dudes even though he did practice.
  - andybak 3y ago
    I'm not sure I accept your premise here. I've spent years of my life listening to the Velvets and I'm also fond of many traditionally "virtuosic" artists. And I don't really make a huge distinction between them. The first Velvets album doesn't feel like anything about it was diminished by the musicianship. (I wish I could play that badly!) Also let's not forget John Cale was classical trained, and was probably the biggest proponent of "noise" in the band.
    - HDThoreaun 3y ago
      I don't think noise and bad musicianship are so tightly linked like your comment seems to say. Big Black made that very clear, and we've only seen more well played noise since then. I think the first velvet record was an incredible visionary piece of art, I also think it would be better if the entire underground was as talented as Cale clearly is on the record. Nico especially is incredibly off putting.
      - andybak 3y ago
        > I think noise and bad musicianship are so tightly linked like your comment seems to say. I don't think I was intending to say that - or if I did it was meant to be echoing back what you were implying except with big scare quotes around it. Nico was quite charming on the first Velvets album and her Desert Shore is close to a masterpiece.
  - tptacek 3y ago
    I don't think it's the case that Albini took pride in sounding unpracticed! Big Black, at least in recordings, is actually somewhat meticulous. Judge them the way you'd judge, like, early Einsturzende, not the way you'd judge Yngwie Malmsteen.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - worik 3y ago
    > they took pride in sounding unpracticed. That whole ethos pervaded the punk scene from the very beginning Not really. The "punk ethos" is DIY It is not that punks take pride in being "unpractised" it is that they are doing it themselves, for themselves, their way
    - HDThoreaun 3y ago
      Their way being "badly". In fact I think this is the problem. The scene effectively made "non-corporate" and "untalented" synonyms for the people in it. I think that's a huge mistake. The new era of DIY music largely eschews that idea which has been a major win for the scene. Doing things your own way shouldn't mean that you're just doing it worse.
      - worik 3y ago
        > Their way being "badly". In fact I think this is the problem Not always. Many punk bands are extremely accomplished. > The scene effectively made "non-corporate" and "untalented" synonyms Nonsense! "Corporate" and "bad", are synonyms. Talent has little to do with it. Nobody gets to hear the enthusiastic, but bad, opera singers. Too much capital involved in putting on an opera. Every body in earshot hears the enthusiastic, but bad, punk rockers because DIY.
hackandthink 3y ago
"as long as you're loud and vulgar it doesn't matter that you can't actually play your instrument" There is a certain irony. Many punk bands played quite well despite this attitude. I can't think of a really bad band either.
- stcroixx 3y ago
  Sex Pistols couldn’t play or perform.
  - nathan_douglas 3y ago
    Sid Vicious was obviously inept, but the rest of the band (including the original bassist) knew what they were doing.
  - hackandthink 3y ago
    Another opinion: https://www.udiscovermusic.com/stories/sex-pistols-music-feature/ https://www.udiscovermusic.com/stories/sex-pistols-music-fea...

tptacek 3y ago

The subtext I get from this is that you saw Albini as a proponent of big dumb hardcore DIY punk, and Big Black really wasn’t that, as even Christgau acknowledged. There was a lot of artistry in they way they managed to be repellent.

HDThoreaun 3y ago
> There was a lot of artistry in they way they managed to be repellent. There was a lot of artistry in early Lou Reed too. I still think it's lame that the velvet underground not only were bad musicians but that they took pride in sounding unpracticed. That whole ethos pervaded the punk scene from the very beginning and I think a lot of Albini's choices about his vulgarity and whatnot have a lot to do with wanting to be like those dudes even though he did practice.
- andybak 3y ago
  I'm not sure I accept your premise here. I've spent years of my life listening to the Velvets and I'm also fond of many traditionally "virtuosic" artists. And I don't really make a huge distinction between them. The first Velvets album doesn't feel like anything about it was diminished by the musicianship. (I wish I could play that badly!) Also let's not forget John Cale was classical trained, and was probably the biggest proponent of "noise" in the band.
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    I don't think noise and bad musicianship are so tightly linked like your comment seems to say. Big Black made that very clear, and we've only seen more well played noise since then. I think the first velvet record was an incredible visionary piece of art, I also think it would be better if the entire underground was as talented as Cale clearly is on the record. Nico especially is incredibly off putting.
    - andybak 3y ago
      > I think noise and bad musicianship are so tightly linked like your comment seems to say. I don't think I was intending to say that - or if I did it was meant to be echoing back what you were implying except with big scare quotes around it. Nico was quite charming on the first Velvets album and her Desert Shore is close to a masterpiece.
- tptacek 3y ago
  I don't think it's the case that Albini took pride in sounding unpracticed! Big Black, at least in recordings, is actually somewhat meticulous. Judge them the way you'd judge, like, early Einsturzende, not the way you'd judge Yngwie Malmsteen.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- worik 3y ago
  > they took pride in sounding unpracticed. That whole ethos pervaded the punk scene from the very beginning Not really. The "punk ethos" is DIY It is not that punks take pride in being "unpractised" it is that they are doing it themselves, for themselves, their way
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    Their way being "badly". In fact I think this is the problem. The scene effectively made "non-corporate" and "untalented" synonyms for the people in it. I think that's a huge mistake. The new era of DIY music largely eschews that idea which has been a major win for the scene. Doing things your own way shouldn't mean that you're just doing it worse.
    - worik 3y ago
      > Their way being "badly". In fact I think this is the problem Not always. Many punk bands are extremely accomplished. > The scene effectively made "non-corporate" and "untalented" synonyms Nonsense! "Corporate" and "bad", are synonyms. Talent has little to do with it. Nobody gets to hear the enthusiastic, but bad, opera singers. Too much capital involved in putting on an opera. Every body in earshot hears the enthusiastic, but bad, punk rockers because DIY.

hackandthink 3y ago

"as long as you're loud and vulgar it doesn't matter that you can't actually play your instrument" There is a certain irony. Many punk bands played quite well despite this attitude. I can't think of a really bad band either.

stcroixx 3y ago
Sex Pistols couldn’t play or perform.
- nathan_douglas 3y ago
  Sid Vicious was obviously inept, but the rest of the band (including the original bassist) knew what they were doing.
- hackandthink 3y ago
  Another opinion: https://www.udiscovermusic.com/stories/sex-pistols-music-feature/ https://www.udiscovermusic.com/stories/sex-pistols-music-fea...