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> and people rightly recognize that fighting it would mean their lives get less comfortable I'm growing tired of the idea that riding a bike instead of driving

> and people rightly recognize that fighting it would mean their lives get less comfortable I'm growing tired of the idea that riding a bike instead of driving a car is a discomfort equivalent to being a Neanderthal. Biking works out just dandy for Netherlands. It's not about comfort. It's about aversion to change.

mathgeek 3y ago
(only speaking as an American) The amount of effort, cost, and discomfort involved in transitioning most of America from car-first to infrastructure that supports walking and biking is quite large. Given the choice between staying as things are, moving your entire life to a distant urban area, or being taxed to upgrade infrastructure, many are going to desire the first option.
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
  > moving your entire life to a distant urban area Who says you need to move? ~50% of the US population is urban, and that number is rising quickly.
  - pclmulqdq 3y ago
    The kind of "urban" that qualifies for that label in the US is a lot more spread out and car-based than it is in Europe. Miami, FL and Los Angeles, CA are urban, but have relatively small areas of high enough density to support a public transit system.
    - onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
      This whole thread is about biking. Miami & Los Angeles could be biking paradises with minimal effort from the city. But voters view bikers as subhuman.
      - pclmulqdq 3y ago
        I think you are underestimating how much effort would be required. That is at least a 9-figure project in each city if you don't widen any roads and just convert car space to bike space.
  - mathgeek 3y ago
    > Who says you need to move? No one did. That’s why “or being taxed to upgrade infrastructure” is the very next part of my statement.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  The real choice however is between personal sacrifice of luxury today and sacrifice of life or livelihood for those alive tomorrow. And possibly a mention in future history books as 'the generation that was aware and could have fixed it'.
anonporridge 3y ago
I personally agree with this. Most people are pathetically weak with such an extreme aversion to minor discomfort or the denial of indulgence and acute pleasure. This counter intuitively makes their holistic life experience more miserable than if they had the foresight to sacrifice a little today for a much better future. Aversion to exercise and eating healthy resulting the obesity epidemic is the classic example of this. Enlightened hedonism is the way.
- brookst 3y ago
  You seem to be very close to the insight that human behavior and preferences have nature and nurture influences that are hard for everyone to overcome, and impossible for many. It’s fine to look down on those people, but that doesn’t change the reality.
callalex 3y ago
I don’t think you’ve ever been the level of our-of-shape that many people are. I have experienced the full spectrum from trained-athlete to alcoholic obesity, and there is a level of out-of-shape you can be where going for a half mile walk will be physically painful for more than a day. It really feels miserable. The good news is that it can be overcome.
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
  > I don’t think you’ve ever been the level of our-of-shape that many people are. No, I haven't. And I fail to see how being out-of-shape is a comfort and not a discomfort. I do agree that we can't force morbidly obese people onto bikes. But the narrative amongst healthy people has got to change that their life would be DRAMATICALLY worse if they biked instead of drove a stupid $80k SUV. Only ~28% of urbanites are obese in the US, btw. Compare that to ~60% in most rural areas and suburbs. In most walkable urban areas - this number is ~20% or less. It's almost as if the car and the design of our cities makes us fat, and maybe we should change that, instead of saying that the car & roads & parking makes us comfortable.
  - Paul-Craft 3y ago
    What you are apparently failing to understand is that the Netherlands is smaller than the 41st largest of 50 states in the US (West Virginia). The longest distance you can travel by any means whatsoever in West Virginia is about 440km. Oh, and it has mountains, too. The Netherlands is pretty much flat, cyclist-friendly terrain. Let's also not forget that the US pretty much has no bike infrastructure. You can say "well, that's your fault," but it's not the fault of the SUV drivers; it's the fault of city planners who plan for anticipated demand by cyclists, rather than leading with infrastructure to encourage cycling. This predictably leads to a lack of people wanting to cycle, for fairly rational reasons: roads built for and dominated by cars are not very safe for people riding bikes. So, the demand doesn't materialize because the infrastructure isn't here, which inhibits demand. Oh, and yeah, the auto manufacturers had a bit to do with it as well. [0] In any case, your ire is aimed in the wrong direction, and the "fat, out of shape American" stereotype has very little to do with it. --- [0]: https://www.businessinsider.com/cycling-boom-us-streets-infrastructure-bike-lanes-history-united-states-2020-12?international=true&r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/cycling-boom-us-streets-infr...
jl6 3y ago
I think it would be fantastic if we biked more, but let’s be realistic: while biking can be super-fun in perfect conditions, it is considerably less so when you add hills, rain, cargo, and temperature extremes.
- steve_adams_86 3y ago
  You're right. Electric bikes are pretty awesome at addressing these problems, though. I know they remove some of the exercise element, though for many it might add exercise since they're otherwise doing nothing at all. It's also okay to be a little uncomfortable. A lot of us are quite obsessed with avoiding discomfort, but it's often exactly what we need. I like riding my cargo bike with my son to his school, getting soaked and blown around in the wind. Sometimes he hates it, sometimes I dream of dry sunny days, but when I get home or to the office I'm in love with my awesome bike and all the cool stuff we do with it. Camping, shopping, errands—it's awesome, and totally worth the discomfort. Like in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: on a bike, you're in your environment, not just watching it go by. You're a participator, not a spectator. You're in the weather, you can reach out and touch some tall grass or a low hanging branch. That aspect makes little parts of the day so much more immersive and interesting. I love that, and I'll take getting hot and sweaty or cold and soaked over driving my car 95% of the time. I know it's only my perspective, and many will never consider it, but I hope a lot more people do. Bikes made my life so much better. For what it's worth, I'm out of shape and a bit overweight, so I'm not some fit and out-of-touch athlete telling people they should just go ahead and do a difficult thing. I'll admit though, there are definitely financial barriers. If you take the bus for economical reasons, an electric cargo bike probably isn't an option. If you own a car and need it, and you can barely afford it as it is, an electric cargo bike also isn't a realistic option. It's definitely a privilege in a sense, and I won't shame someone for relying on a car in those circumstances. Well, I won't shame anyone regardless.
  - mbrock 3y ago
    I love going with my kid in the cargo bike when it's raining and he's sitting in the canopy dry and happy. The car's role in family life is hard to overstate, though, when you have more than one kid, and you need to get somewhere all together while also bringing some cargo like a stroller. We get by with renting a car occasionally, but installing two car seats and bringing them back up to the flat again is getting really boring. Actually I'm dreaming of buying a used RV...
folkrav 3y ago
One word: infrastructure. People over here cry every time they add anything resembling bike/walking infrastructure - "WHAT ABOUT ALL THOSE CARS LOSING SPACE?".
- steve_adams_86 3y ago
  Won't someone think of the cars?! This seems to ignore that we've been thinking of the cars for a century and it really hasn't worked out all that well for cities, where most people live. We need to do it differently, and more cars/space for cars isn't the solution. It doesn't need to be bikes either; plenty of people can't even ride bikes. All access lanes seem be the best solution I've seen (wide enough for mobility scooters, room for passing, on and off ramps, etc).
schoen 3y ago
I ride a bike (have never owned a car) and am vegan and I think both of those are awesome, at least if you live in a place where both are common so that things are at least moderately convenient. But I also flew about 100,000 km per year in the time before COVID and am still on track to fly about 30,000-50,000 km this year. This puts me right back among the people with the highest carbon footprints in the whole world. There are lots of different things that people might be asked to sacrifice, not just one. And the general trend of development and rising wealth is a trend of greater energy intensity. You can find exceptions and substitutes where you can reduce energy intensity in some area without major sacrifice, but if you have to do it across the board over and over again, that's really a loss of material standard of living.
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
  > But I also flew about 100,000 km per year in the time before COVID and am still on track to fly about 30,000-50,000 km this year. This puts me right back among the people with the highest carbon footprints in the whole world. You were going to fly 30k-50k km regardless of if you biked or drove. The fact that you biked cut your emissions quite a bit. A cut in emissions is still a success. And before anyone says, but what about my electric car!? 1) it produces a ton of carbon to build your car (a year's worth of emissions for a Westerner)... 2) for at least the next 10-years, in most of the US and the EU, your car is charged by ~50% fossil fuels. The average person's emissions are almost ~1/10th just from building their car...
- thunky 3y ago
  > But I also flew about 100,000 km per year in the time before COVID and am still on track to fly about 30,000-50,000 km this year Can I ask why? I struggle to think of a legitimate reason anyone would need to travel that much. Please don't say it's for meetings.
  - schoen 3y ago
    In the time before COVID I frequently spoke at conferences and would go in person to several conferences per year, often in foreign countries. This year is family visits and vacations. My travel patterns were still rather low for self-conscious "frequent flyers", who would, for example, feel an absolute requirement to fly at least 50,000 or 100,000 miles on a single airline each year in order to "maintain status" so that that airline would reward them with various perks. I have "only" ever done this once. Of course, I expect even approaching the low end of a frequent flyer status is probably the top 1% carbon footprint in the world.
aequitas 3y ago
> Biking works out just dandy for Netherlands. The same Netherlands that still can’t say goodbye to its beloved car. Traffic is back and surpassed pre-covid records. We still have to keep speed restrictions during daytime to reduce emissions because we just can’t help it to live in one part of the country and work in the other.
fullshark 3y ago
And this is a change I"m guessing you prefer? Independent of carbon emissions? Like the vegetarians who long for climate change policies to end animal slaughter, climate change is being used as a justification for policy prescriptions a subset of the population wants, and the sacrifices involved are not even considered sacrifices to them but preferred policy outcomes.
Glome495 3y ago
There are places with weather (rain, extreme temperatures, winds) that make it difficult for people to get by on a bike and possibly deadly to those with prior health conditions.

mathgeek 3y ago

(only speaking as an American) The amount of effort, cost, and discomfort involved in transitioning most of America from car-first to infrastructure that supports walking and biking is quite large. Given the choice between staying as things are, moving your entire life to a distant urban area, or being taxed to upgrade infrastructure, many are going to desire the first option.

onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
> moving your entire life to a distant urban area Who says you need to move? ~50% of the US population is urban, and that number is rising quickly.
- pclmulqdq 3y ago
  The kind of "urban" that qualifies for that label in the US is a lot more spread out and car-based than it is in Europe. Miami, FL and Los Angeles, CA are urban, but have relatively small areas of high enough density to support a public transit system.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
    This whole thread is about biking. Miami & Los Angeles could be biking paradises with minimal effort from the city. But voters view bikers as subhuman.
    - pclmulqdq 3y ago
      I think you are underestimating how much effort would be required. That is at least a 9-figure project in each city if you don't widen any roads and just convert car space to bike space.
- mathgeek 3y ago
  > Who says you need to move? No one did. That’s why “or being taxed to upgrade infrastructure” is the very next part of my statement.
jacquesm 3y ago
The real choice however is between personal sacrifice of luxury today and sacrifice of life or livelihood for those alive tomorrow. And possibly a mention in future history books as 'the generation that was aware and could have fixed it'.

anonporridge 3y ago

I personally agree with this. Most people are pathetically weak with such an extreme aversion to minor discomfort or the denial of indulgence and acute pleasure. This counter intuitively makes their holistic life experience more miserable than if they had the foresight to sacrifice a little today for a much better future. Aversion to exercise and eating healthy resulting the obesity epidemic is the classic example of this. Enlightened hedonism is the way.

brookst 3y ago
You seem to be very close to the insight that human behavior and preferences have nature and nurture influences that are hard for everyone to overcome, and impossible for many. It’s fine to look down on those people, but that doesn’t change the reality.

callalex 3y ago

I don’t think you’ve ever been the level of our-of-shape that many people are. I have experienced the full spectrum from trained-athlete to alcoholic obesity, and there is a level of out-of-shape you can be where going for a half mile walk will be physically painful for more than a day. It really feels miserable. The good news is that it can be overcome.

onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
> I don’t think you’ve ever been the level of our-of-shape that many people are. No, I haven't. And I fail to see how being out-of-shape is a comfort and not a discomfort. I do agree that we can't force morbidly obese people onto bikes. But the narrative amongst healthy people has got to change that their life would be DRAMATICALLY worse if they biked instead of drove a stupid $80k SUV. Only ~28% of urbanites are obese in the US, btw. Compare that to ~60% in most rural areas and suburbs. In most walkable urban areas - this number is ~20% or less. It's almost as if the car and the design of our cities makes us fat, and maybe we should change that, instead of saying that the car & roads & parking makes us comfortable.
- Paul-Craft 3y ago
  What you are apparently failing to understand is that the Netherlands is smaller than the 41st largest of 50 states in the US (West Virginia). The longest distance you can travel by any means whatsoever in West Virginia is about 440km. Oh, and it has mountains, too. The Netherlands is pretty much flat, cyclist-friendly terrain. Let's also not forget that the US pretty much has no bike infrastructure. You can say "well, that's your fault," but it's not the fault of the SUV drivers; it's the fault of city planners who plan for anticipated demand by cyclists, rather than leading with infrastructure to encourage cycling. This predictably leads to a lack of people wanting to cycle, for fairly rational reasons: roads built for and dominated by cars are not very safe for people riding bikes. So, the demand doesn't materialize because the infrastructure isn't here, which inhibits demand. Oh, and yeah, the auto manufacturers had a bit to do with it as well. [0] In any case, your ire is aimed in the wrong direction, and the "fat, out of shape American" stereotype has very little to do with it. --- [0]: https://www.businessinsider.com/cycling-boom-us-streets-infrastructure-bike-lanes-history-united-states-2020-12?international=true&r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/cycling-boom-us-streets-infr...

jl6 3y ago

I think it would be fantastic if we biked more, but let’s be realistic: while biking can be super-fun in perfect conditions, it is considerably less so when you add hills, rain, cargo, and temperature extremes.

steve_adams_86 3y ago
You're right. Electric bikes are pretty awesome at addressing these problems, though. I know they remove some of the exercise element, though for many it might add exercise since they're otherwise doing nothing at all. It's also okay to be a little uncomfortable. A lot of us are quite obsessed with avoiding discomfort, but it's often exactly what we need. I like riding my cargo bike with my son to his school, getting soaked and blown around in the wind. Sometimes he hates it, sometimes I dream of dry sunny days, but when I get home or to the office I'm in love with my awesome bike and all the cool stuff we do with it. Camping, shopping, errands—it's awesome, and totally worth the discomfort. Like in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: on a bike, you're in your environment, not just watching it go by. You're a participator, not a spectator. You're in the weather, you can reach out and touch some tall grass or a low hanging branch. That aspect makes little parts of the day so much more immersive and interesting. I love that, and I'll take getting hot and sweaty or cold and soaked over driving my car 95% of the time. I know it's only my perspective, and many will never consider it, but I hope a lot more people do. Bikes made my life so much better. For what it's worth, I'm out of shape and a bit overweight, so I'm not some fit and out-of-touch athlete telling people they should just go ahead and do a difficult thing. I'll admit though, there are definitely financial barriers. If you take the bus for economical reasons, an electric cargo bike probably isn't an option. If you own a car and need it, and you can barely afford it as it is, an electric cargo bike also isn't a realistic option. It's definitely a privilege in a sense, and I won't shame someone for relying on a car in those circumstances. Well, I won't shame anyone regardless.
- mbrock 3y ago
  I love going with my kid in the cargo bike when it's raining and he's sitting in the canopy dry and happy. The car's role in family life is hard to overstate, though, when you have more than one kid, and you need to get somewhere all together while also bringing some cargo like a stroller. We get by with renting a car occasionally, but installing two car seats and bringing them back up to the flat again is getting really boring. Actually I'm dreaming of buying a used RV...

folkrav 3y ago

One word: infrastructure. People over here cry every time they add anything resembling bike/walking infrastructure - "WHAT ABOUT ALL THOSE CARS LOSING SPACE?".

steve_adams_86 3y ago
Won't someone think of the cars?! This seems to ignore that we've been thinking of the cars for a century and it really hasn't worked out all that well for cities, where most people live. We need to do it differently, and more cars/space for cars isn't the solution. It doesn't need to be bikes either; plenty of people can't even ride bikes. All access lanes seem be the best solution I've seen (wide enough for mobility scooters, room for passing, on and off ramps, etc).

schoen 3y ago

I ride a bike (have never owned a car) and am vegan and I think both of those are awesome, at least if you live in a place where both are common so that things are at least moderately convenient. But I also flew about 100,000 km per year in the time before COVID and am still on track to fly about 30,000-50,000 km this year. This puts me right back among the people with the highest carbon footprints in the whole world. There are lots of different things that people might be asked to sacrifice, not just one. And the general trend of development and rising wealth is a trend of greater energy intensity. You can find exceptions and substitutes where you can reduce energy intensity in some area without major sacrifice, but if you have to do it across the board over and over again, that's really a loss of material standard of living.

onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
> But I also flew about 100,000 km per year in the time before COVID and am still on track to fly about 30,000-50,000 km this year. This puts me right back among the people with the highest carbon footprints in the whole world. You were going to fly 30k-50k km regardless of if you biked or drove. The fact that you biked cut your emissions quite a bit. A cut in emissions is still a success. And before anyone says, but what about my electric car!? 1) it produces a ton of carbon to build your car (a year's worth of emissions for a Westerner)... 2) for at least the next 10-years, in most of the US and the EU, your car is charged by ~50% fossil fuels. The average person's emissions are almost ~1/10th just from building their car...
thunky 3y ago
> But I also flew about 100,000 km per year in the time before COVID and am still on track to fly about 30,000-50,000 km this year Can I ask why? I struggle to think of a legitimate reason anyone would need to travel that much. Please don't say it's for meetings.
- schoen 3y ago
  In the time before COVID I frequently spoke at conferences and would go in person to several conferences per year, often in foreign countries. This year is family visits and vacations. My travel patterns were still rather low for self-conscious "frequent flyers", who would, for example, feel an absolute requirement to fly at least 50,000 or 100,000 miles on a single airline each year in order to "maintain status" so that that airline would reward them with various perks. I have "only" ever done this once. Of course, I expect even approaching the low end of a frequent flyer status is probably the top 1% carbon footprint in the world.

aequitas 3y ago

> Biking works out just dandy for Netherlands. The same Netherlands that still can’t say goodbye to its beloved car. Traffic is back and surpassed pre-covid records. We still have to keep speed restrictions during daytime to reduce emissions because we just can’t help it to live in one part of the country and work in the other.

fullshark 3y ago

And this is a change I"m guessing you prefer? Independent of carbon emissions? Like the vegetarians who long for climate change policies to end animal slaughter, climate change is being used as a justification for policy prescriptions a subset of the population wants, and the sacrifices involved are not even considered sacrifices to them but preferred policy outcomes.

Glome495 3y ago

There are places with weather (rain, extreme temperatures, winds) that make it difficult for people to get by on a bike and possibly deadly to those with prior health conditions.