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Abusive customers should pay. Otherwise, the costs of this nonsense get passed on to everybody. You buy 12 dresses and return 11? So sorry, you're still paying

Abusive customers should pay. Otherwise, the costs of this nonsense get passed on to everybody. You buy 12 dresses and return 11? So sorry, you're still paying for 6 of them. I buy all of my clothes online and - aside from a blatant defect - have never returned anything. It's just not necessary, as long as the retailer is honest with their sizing. No returns on holiday goods after the holiday. No returns on used generators after a storm. Etc. Seriously, just stop. It's not like you're going to lose worthwhile customers.

tryptophan 3y ago
It’s people like you that are too honest that these companies make most their money from. They are arbitraging morality. Providing a financial incentive to be shitty and dishonest.
- roadbuster 3y ago
  > too honest Consider some reflection on this statement
antihero 3y ago
Part of the reason online shopping works and can replace the high street is that you can buy stuff, actually try it on, and return the stuff that you don’t like though. It’s not abusive in the slightest.
endisneigh 3y ago
A retailer could do what you're suggesting - and then they'll find no one will bother with them. There's a reason every popular retailer offers hassle free returns. The only way it could possibly work is if this place you propose were much cheaper, but returns don't cost enough to the company to possibly make up for the lost revenue - alas.
renewiltord 3y ago
That's some half of all online clothes buyers who buy multiple sizes to get something that fits and return the rest. It's a normal enough flow that some stores enable it explicitly like https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=GCQDLMG7C2YEXSM4 https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=...
paxys 3y ago
If companies don't want people buying 12 dresses and returning 11 of them then they can easily enforce it somewhere among their hundreds of pages of terms and conditions. Buying multiple sizes, colors, varieties and returning most of them is exactly how most of the world shops online, and retailers are perfectly fine with that, because they are competing with physical stores where you can do exactly that. Using a service exactly as it is intended to is not "abusive". If you aren't happy with the practice then shop at a site that explicitly bans this and quit your preaching. It's not mine or anyone else's job to ensure that a corporation's profits are maximized. You are free to take any moral stance you want, just don't impose it on everyone else.
- jaclaz 3y ago
  I may be wrong but if there is a percentage as high as 30-40% of items that are returned and that cannot be resold to other customers and are either liquidated or destroyed, the (greedy) corporation has already raised all prices 50% higher than what would be possible if there wasn't such waste. At the end of the day customers are the ones that pay for that, if they are happy, it's fine of course.
  - paxys 3y ago
    Do you think the company would start charging less than what consumers were willing to bear if the rate of returns suddenly dropped?
    - Shaanie 3y ago
      Yes? Competition is a wonderful thing.
      - jaclaz 3y ago
        In theory. In consumer products there is no real connection between costs and prices, what happens is that for a given item the final consumer price is set to whatever it is considered affordable by a large enough amount of people in the targeted niche. Then how much it costs is secundary, it is the price that is fixed. The difference between the costs and the price is the company's margin, one company may be clever and have 30% margins, another one may be less clever and have 5% or -10% (and will soon close) but the price remains fixed. The 1/2/4 another member posted about is only a quick approximation, the 4 is fixed the 1 is irrelevant (to the retailer) the 2 is what may vary, if it becomes (say) 2.5 because of the return policy, the retailer will eat the reduced margin until, little by little, the price can be raised to 4.1, 4.2, 4.3, etc. The inverse (reducing final price because the 2 became 1.5) never happens. Competition may lower the price for a number of reasons (reduced margin because increased volumes as an example), but it is still largely independent from costs.
rescbr 3y ago
The problem is that at least for clothing, product descriptions are crap, dimensions are all over the place, products don’t match the picture and every other brand has its own definition of sizing. The retailers/brands are the dishonest ones. Other items, sure. At least in my country there’s a 7 day no questions asked return period for returns on online purchases. Otherwise, unless it’s a defective product, it’s a done deal.
adrr 3y ago
No one would buy from you if you have very restrictive return policies. If you start denying people claims, you piss people off and having motivated angry customers is very bad for business. You also risk the government coming down on top of you especially if your marketing includes things like "hassle-less returns" or "no questions returns". Also even if you return 11 out of 12 dresses, the margins around clothes is so high, the company still makes money. Landed costs for the dress was probably under $10 and probably sold for $100. When I worked for apparel company, we encouraged people to buy multiple products and return the stuff that doesn't fit or didn't like because in the end, we had 70% gross margins and most people are lazy and don't return stuff.
ebiester 3y ago
Sizes are not standardized, and most people don't know how it's going to fit until they try it on. Maybe the right answer is to have every piece tailored, and I'd say that's a valuable way to reduce the need to return, but I've definitely seen clothes online that I didn't like when I had them in my hands. The answer, to me, is that I won't order clothes online.
lotsofpulp 3y ago
I would say an abusive customer is one who wears the item, literally uses it, and then returns it to get a free use out of it. But if someone is ordering things to simply try them on for size or look, and end up returning it, I do not see how that is abuse. If it is costing the retailer too much, then they should dissuade it by enforcing return fees. I love online clothes shopping because in store shopping wastes time when they do not have the size I need. So I order 3 sizes, the size I think will fit me, the size above, and the size below. I keep whichever one works best, and return the other 2. I never take any tags and whatnot off, so I hope the retailer can simply inspect the item and put it back in inventory. But who knows, maybe the labor costs to inspect returns is too high. Either way, if a retailer wants to advertise free returns, that is their business.
- tehwebguy 3y ago
  Plus returns done this way are a replacement for the fitting room, which cost the retailer money to own or rent, build out and maintain, staff and keep climate controlled etc whether you shopped there or not.
mikestew 3y ago
It's just not necessary, as long as the retailer is honest with their sizing. Yeah, and if a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump its ass when it hops. An otherwise reasonable comment marred by a disconnection from reality.
throwway120385 3y ago
Have you ever gone dress shopping with a woman? Because I've gone with my wife and I can tell you from observation that the size numbers are meaningless, the measurements don't tell you anything about how it fits, and nobody ever carries the right size in the right dress. Women who wear dresses can spend hours or days shopping around. Three measurements are not enough to describe the shape of anyone's body and you should stop pretending that it is.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ranting-moth 3y ago
> honest with their sizing The sizing system is broken. We need a new comprehensive standard sizing system. Garments can still say size X on it, but then include a bunch of other standard encoded measurements.

tryptophan 3y ago

It’s people like you that are too honest that these companies make most their money from. They are arbitraging morality. Providing a financial incentive to be shitty and dishonest.

roadbuster 3y ago
> too honest Consider some reflection on this statement

antihero 3y ago

Part of the reason online shopping works and can replace the high street is that you can buy stuff, actually try it on, and return the stuff that you don’t like though. It’s not abusive in the slightest.

endisneigh 3y ago

A retailer could do what you're suggesting - and then they'll find no one will bother with them. There's a reason every popular retailer offers hassle free returns. The only way it could possibly work is if this place you propose were much cheaper, but returns don't cost enough to the company to possibly make up for the lost revenue - alas.

renewiltord 3y ago

That's some half of all online clothes buyers who buy multiple sizes to get something that fits and return the rest. It's a normal enough flow that some stores enable it explicitly like https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=GCQDLMG7C2YEXSM4 https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=...

paxys 3y ago

If companies don't want people buying 12 dresses and returning 11 of them then they can easily enforce it somewhere among their hundreds of pages of terms and conditions. Buying multiple sizes, colors, varieties and returning most of them is exactly how most of the world shops online, and retailers are perfectly fine with that, because they are competing with physical stores where you can do exactly that. Using a service exactly as it is intended to is not "abusive". If you aren't happy with the practice then shop at a site that explicitly bans this and quit your preaching. It's not mine or anyone else's job to ensure that a corporation's profits are maximized. You are free to take any moral stance you want, just don't impose it on everyone else.

jaclaz 3y ago
I may be wrong but if there is a percentage as high as 30-40% of items that are returned and that cannot be resold to other customers and are either liquidated or destroyed, the (greedy) corporation has already raised all prices 50% higher than what would be possible if there wasn't such waste. At the end of the day customers are the ones that pay for that, if they are happy, it's fine of course.
- paxys 3y ago
  Do you think the company would start charging less than what consumers were willing to bear if the rate of returns suddenly dropped?
  - Shaanie 3y ago
    Yes? Competition is a wonderful thing.
    - jaclaz 3y ago
      In theory. In consumer products there is no real connection between costs and prices, what happens is that for a given item the final consumer price is set to whatever it is considered affordable by a large enough amount of people in the targeted niche. Then how much it costs is secundary, it is the price that is fixed. The difference between the costs and the price is the company's margin, one company may be clever and have 30% margins, another one may be less clever and have 5% or -10% (and will soon close) but the price remains fixed. The 1/2/4 another member posted about is only a quick approximation, the 4 is fixed the 1 is irrelevant (to the retailer) the 2 is what may vary, if it becomes (say) 2.5 because of the return policy, the retailer will eat the reduced margin until, little by little, the price can be raised to 4.1, 4.2, 4.3, etc. The inverse (reducing final price because the 2 became 1.5) never happens. Competition may lower the price for a number of reasons (reduced margin because increased volumes as an example), but it is still largely independent from costs.

rescbr 3y ago

The problem is that at least for clothing, product descriptions are crap, dimensions are all over the place, products don’t match the picture and every other brand has its own definition of sizing. The retailers/brands are the dishonest ones. Other items, sure. At least in my country there’s a 7 day no questions asked return period for returns on online purchases. Otherwise, unless it’s a defective product, it’s a done deal.

adrr 3y ago

No one would buy from you if you have very restrictive return policies. If you start denying people claims, you piss people off and having motivated angry customers is very bad for business. You also risk the government coming down on top of you especially if your marketing includes things like "hassle-less returns" or "no questions returns". Also even if you return 11 out of 12 dresses, the margins around clothes is so high, the company still makes money. Landed costs for the dress was probably under $10 and probably sold for $100. When I worked for apparel company, we encouraged people to buy multiple products and return the stuff that doesn't fit or didn't like because in the end, we had 70% gross margins and most people are lazy and don't return stuff.

ebiester 3y ago

Sizes are not standardized, and most people don't know how it's going to fit until they try it on. Maybe the right answer is to have every piece tailored, and I'd say that's a valuable way to reduce the need to return, but I've definitely seen clothes online that I didn't like when I had them in my hands. The answer, to me, is that I won't order clothes online.

lotsofpulp 3y ago

I would say an abusive customer is one who wears the item, literally uses it, and then returns it to get a free use out of it. But if someone is ordering things to simply try them on for size or look, and end up returning it, I do not see how that is abuse. If it is costing the retailer too much, then they should dissuade it by enforcing return fees. I love online clothes shopping because in store shopping wastes time when they do not have the size I need. So I order 3 sizes, the size I think will fit me, the size above, and the size below. I keep whichever one works best, and return the other 2. I never take any tags and whatnot off, so I hope the retailer can simply inspect the item and put it back in inventory. But who knows, maybe the labor costs to inspect returns is too high. Either way, if a retailer wants to advertise free returns, that is their business.

tehwebguy 3y ago
Plus returns done this way are a replacement for the fitting room, which cost the retailer money to own or rent, build out and maintain, staff and keep climate controlled etc whether you shopped there or not.

mikestew 3y ago

It's just not necessary, as long as the retailer is honest with their sizing. Yeah, and if a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump its ass when it hops. An otherwise reasonable comment marred by a disconnection from reality.

throwway120385 3y ago

Have you ever gone dress shopping with a woman? Because I've gone with my wife and I can tell you from observation that the size numbers are meaningless, the measurements don't tell you anything about how it fits, and nobody ever carries the right size in the right dress. Women who wear dresses can spend hours or days shopping around. Three measurements are not enough to describe the shape of anyone's body and you should stop pretending that it is.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ranting-moth 3y ago

> honest with their sizing The sizing system is broken. We need a new comprehensive standard sizing system. Garments can still say size X on it, but then include a bunch of other standard encoded measurements.