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Can confirm. I am getting above average number of recruiter messages. However, this last cycle of layoffs have taught me something. It is 1) the whole chase to

Can confirm. I am getting above average number of recruiter messages. However, this last cycle of layoffs have taught me something. It is 1) the whole chase to Total compensation isn’t worth it, it matters the stability of the organization and the overall value of the work that we produce. To that end, stock compensation is really not to be relied upon at its face value. My total compensation in 2022 was less than 2020 when I was working as a new hire 2) if a company starts hiring to the point where you are taking more and more interviews every week without any real explanation behind the hiring, it’s time to GTFO.

dilyevsky 3y ago
So you would gtfo from 2001 google or 2013 uber? Scaleups are totally fine if you have revenue to support it (right now not at some unspecified future date). Many companies that scaled in 2020-21 just didn’t
- huijzer 3y ago
  Counterexample: Pets.com cost of goods sold would go quicker than their revenue. Similarly, many companies inflate their revenue in all kinds of ways including excessive marketing spending.
  - dilyevsky 3y ago
    This time we didn’t really have that. It was pretty meh revenue numbers across the board and a lot of spending
- majormajor 3y ago
  How many people joined Uber in 2013 vs in 2017-18ish or such? What was the breakeven point for it to be worthwhile? It's easy to be late to the party these days if looking at gaudy Series B/C/D numbers and stock-based comp.
JohnFen 3y ago
> stock compensation is really not to be relied upon at its face value. This is a fantastic realization to have. Getting stock as compensation is a bit like getting lottery tickets as compensation. This is triply true if they're options rather than actual stock. I learned decades ago to ignore the stock component of compensation packages when evaluating an offer. I'll never turn stock or options down, but they will also never be something that will "tip the scales" for me.
- 88913527 3y ago
  Is there a technical difference in considering an RSU to be a stock option with a $0 strike price?
  - pxue 3y ago
    RSU have immediate tax implications, while options may not (and mostly do not) until time of exercise.
  - alasdair_ 3y ago
    You pay taxes when RSUs vest. You pay taxes on options only when you exercise them. In addition, when the RSUs vest, they are yours when you leave the company, with options you have to exercise within a time period (a short one if it's an ISO, potentially 10 years for NSOs).
- sarchertech 3y ago
  Stock in a large publicly traded company is a lot different than options in startup. I definitely think it makes sense to apply some discount to stock compensation when comparing offers, but if stock in a large publicly traded company is very likely worth something.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    The two are definitely different, yes. But I ignore both of them anyway, personally. It's very hard to know what the future value of any stock (even in a large publicly traded company) will be, so it's very hard to figure out how to translate that into value in terms of compensation.
smrtinsert 3y ago
Compensation matters, don't lose sight of that goal. Technologists contribute an outsized impact to the profits of technology companies. We should be fairly compensated and its on each of us to push for it.
mv4 3y ago
+ WLB is worth a lot more than we realized, as evidenced by people happily taking a 20% cut for better WLB.
vidarh 3y ago
> the whole chase to Total compensation isn’t worth it I always flat out tell recruiters that while total comp matters, when comparing I always heavily discount anything not in my basic. Of course how much depends on details (e.g. I discount options to near zero; RSU's much less so), but some parts of total comp will rarely enter the picture when I evaluate an offer unless the basic salary is already good enough. I'll expect a good total comp, but not at the expense of a low basic salary.
- hospitalJail 3y ago
  Total Comp is the important thing, but calculate it using your own methods. No your 'health insurance' plan isnt worth $24,000/yr, I can get that same plan on healthcare.gov. No your stocks don't count, the vesting period is too long. No I'm not going back to school, I already have a grad degree and I'm not doing that again.
  - epicureanideal 3y ago
    > I can get that same plan on healthcare.gov. But not 100% paid for right? And it might cost $1000-2000 depending on your family size. > No your stocks don't count, the vesting period is too long. This one I totally agree. And even if you vest, if it's a startup you're mostly locked in and can't sell them, and without liquidity they're basically worthless.
    - hospitalJail 3y ago
      >But not 100% paid for right? And it might cost $1000-2000 depending on your family size. Its the same plan, often worse. Anyway, you can even calculate the value of that plan, say the cheapest healthcare.gov plan costs $1000/mo, you get it free through work, that is $12000 per year of compensation. Pretty substantial, although I've never seen someone get a free plan at work, though a union firefighter pays $20/mo and is harshly underpaid. For the max out of pocket, you can multiply that by the chance of hitting it per year. But what really matters is the delta cost. Healthcare.gov is quite comparable to w2 jobs. Its often significantly better since you can shop around instead of the corrupt plans the company was sold by some insurance dealer.
noodlenotes 3y ago
It depends on how big the TC difference is. If you can make 2x working at a more volatile company, you can stash away the extra to get through hard times. I would also only count TC in the first year (or 6 months), not some stock options that vest in year 2+.
- insanitybit 3y ago
  It generally takes ~2 years to actually turn your unstable stock into a stable dollar value. As many who joined Square (Block now lol) learned - your idiot CEO can tank your money printing machine at any moment, and while your stock may have quadrupled since you started it's just one dumb move away from dropping a ridiculous amount, and all before you could actually turn any of it into a dollar.
ogn3rd 3y ago
Definitely describes my time at AWS between 2016 and 2022.
raydev 3y ago
> Can confirm. I am getting above average number of recruiter messages. Is this the US? In Canada, my inbox is still empty relative to 2022 and earlier. I used to be so annoyed by all the recruiter spam I got, and now I'd love to have it back.

dilyevsky 3y ago

So you would gtfo from 2001 google or 2013 uber? Scaleups are totally fine if you have revenue to support it (right now not at some unspecified future date). Many companies that scaled in 2020-21 just didn’t

huijzer 3y ago
Counterexample: Pets.com cost of goods sold would go quicker than their revenue. Similarly, many companies inflate their revenue in all kinds of ways including excessive marketing spending.
- dilyevsky 3y ago
  This time we didn’t really have that. It was pretty meh revenue numbers across the board and a lot of spending
majormajor 3y ago
How many people joined Uber in 2013 vs in 2017-18ish or such? What was the breakeven point for it to be worthwhile? It's easy to be late to the party these days if looking at gaudy Series B/C/D numbers and stock-based comp.

JohnFen 3y ago

> stock compensation is really not to be relied upon at its face value. This is a fantastic realization to have. Getting stock as compensation is a bit like getting lottery tickets as compensation. This is triply true if they're options rather than actual stock. I learned decades ago to ignore the stock component of compensation packages when evaluating an offer. I'll never turn stock or options down, but they will also never be something that will "tip the scales" for me.

88913527 3y ago
Is there a technical difference in considering an RSU to be a stock option with a $0 strike price?
- pxue 3y ago
  RSU have immediate tax implications, while options may not (and mostly do not) until time of exercise.
- alasdair_ 3y ago
  You pay taxes when RSUs vest. You pay taxes on options only when you exercise them. In addition, when the RSUs vest, they are yours when you leave the company, with options you have to exercise within a time period (a short one if it's an ISO, potentially 10 years for NSOs).
sarchertech 3y ago
Stock in a large publicly traded company is a lot different than options in startup. I definitely think it makes sense to apply some discount to stock compensation when comparing offers, but if stock in a large publicly traded company is very likely worth something.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  The two are definitely different, yes. But I ignore both of them anyway, personally. It's very hard to know what the future value of any stock (even in a large publicly traded company) will be, so it's very hard to figure out how to translate that into value in terms of compensation.

smrtinsert 3y ago

Compensation matters, don't lose sight of that goal. Technologists contribute an outsized impact to the profits of technology companies. We should be fairly compensated and its on each of us to push for it.

mv4 3y ago

+ WLB is worth a lot more than we realized, as evidenced by people happily taking a 20% cut for better WLB.

vidarh 3y ago

> the whole chase to Total compensation isn’t worth it I always flat out tell recruiters that while total comp matters, when comparing I always heavily discount anything not in my basic. Of course how much depends on details (e.g. I discount options to near zero; RSU's much less so), but some parts of total comp will rarely enter the picture when I evaluate an offer unless the basic salary is already good enough. I'll expect a good total comp, but not at the expense of a low basic salary.

hospitalJail 3y ago
Total Comp is the important thing, but calculate it using your own methods. No your 'health insurance' plan isnt worth $24,000/yr, I can get that same plan on healthcare.gov. No your stocks don't count, the vesting period is too long. No I'm not going back to school, I already have a grad degree and I'm not doing that again.
- epicureanideal 3y ago
  > I can get that same plan on healthcare.gov. But not 100% paid for right? And it might cost $1000-2000 depending on your family size. > No your stocks don't count, the vesting period is too long. This one I totally agree. And even if you vest, if it's a startup you're mostly locked in and can't sell them, and without liquidity they're basically worthless.
  - hospitalJail 3y ago
    >But not 100% paid for right? And it might cost $1000-2000 depending on your family size. Its the same plan, often worse. Anyway, you can even calculate the value of that plan, say the cheapest healthcare.gov plan costs $1000/mo, you get it free through work, that is $12000 per year of compensation. Pretty substantial, although I've never seen someone get a free plan at work, though a union firefighter pays $20/mo and is harshly underpaid. For the max out of pocket, you can multiply that by the chance of hitting it per year. But what really matters is the delta cost. Healthcare.gov is quite comparable to w2 jobs. Its often significantly better since you can shop around instead of the corrupt plans the company was sold by some insurance dealer.

noodlenotes 3y ago

It depends on how big the TC difference is. If you can make 2x working at a more volatile company, you can stash away the extra to get through hard times. I would also only count TC in the first year (or 6 months), not some stock options that vest in year 2+.

insanitybit 3y ago
It generally takes ~2 years to actually turn your unstable stock into a stable dollar value. As many who joined Square (Block now lol) learned - your idiot CEO can tank your money printing machine at any moment, and while your stock may have quadrupled since you started it's just one dumb move away from dropping a ridiculous amount, and all before you could actually turn any of it into a dollar.

ogn3rd 3y ago

Definitely describes my time at AWS between 2016 and 2022.

raydev 3y ago

> Can confirm. I am getting above average number of recruiter messages. Is this the US? In Canada, my inbox is still empty relative to 2022 and earlier. I used to be so annoyed by all the recruiter spam I got, and now I'd love to have it back.