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Sure, but perhaps there need to be more regulations on who gets that cheap water. I'm fine with American taxpayers subsidizing water so that American food is c

Sure, but perhaps there need to be more regulations on who gets that cheap water. I'm fine with American taxpayers subsidizing water so that American food is cheaper for Americans. I'm less fine with American taxpayers subsidizing Saudi Arabian food. Perhaps any water used to grow something that is exported could be priced at market value, while water pricing for products consumed domestically can remain the same.

henearkr 3y ago
The problem is more where. Water should be expensive where it is scarce, and cheap (or even subsidized) where it is plentiful. Even in different regions inside the same country. This also works as a signal to help water-thirsty industries to locate or relocate themselves.
- margalabargala 3y ago
  There are good reasons to do things like farming in the desert via irrigation. If water is not an issue, then crops are significantly more productive per acre due to the increased sunlight. Places where water is plentiful tend to be less productive for agriculture due to the increase in cloud cover; a rainy day is a day when the plants get less energy. There's a balance to be struck between using an unsustainable amount of desert water, and using none of it.
  - henearkr 3y ago
    I don't think that the energy cost of irrigating in the desert will ever be sustainable. If you have a counter-example, I'm interested. But I do see the possibility of solving the problem by using photovoltaic energy (though maybe not optimally, because not having to move the water would allow to use the electricity for other usages). Bear in mind that the alternative is to grow crops in countries where it is raining most of the time. Plants fare really really well in rainy countries, they don't mind at all that the sun is less present. The only real drawback is the shortened growing period, if the country is too far north or too far south.
freeopinion 3y ago
Why do you think this water is not priced at market value? If a farmer could take their water and sell it for more money to somebody who would then treat it, transport it, and resell it to the public, the farmer would do that. It might be counterintuitive to a lot of people, but if you want to stop farmers from using their water to grow crops, raise the price of potable water. The farmer understands markets very well. They buy and use water based on market values. What you're hearing is a lot of complaining from people who do not understand markets and think that they can dictate market prices just by word alone. Markets don't usually work that way.
- pdonis 3y ago
  > Why do you think this water is not priced at market value? Because farmers can't take their water and sell it for more money to someone else, and they have no incentive to economize on water usage. Water prices are not set by supply and demand, they are set by government regulation. The "market" that farmers buy water in is not a free market.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    Where do you think these Saudi farmers bought the land and water contracts? They bought them from some other farmer. Governments can absolutely buy out water contracts from farmers on the open market. In the cases where water is tied to land title, it can be separated, as is common with other natural resources like natural gas and minerals
- specialist 3y ago
  Where is the market for water rights in the US West?
  - freeopinion 3y ago
    That's kind of like asking, "Where is the market for eggs in the US West?"
    - 3y ago
celtain 3y ago
Just give people money to buy food.
Paul-Craft 3y ago
You know the rest of the world subsides pretty much everything except food for Americans via cheap manufacturing labor, right? Why shouldn't the rest of the world get its due?
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  People agreeing to work for lower wages than they do in the US is not a subsidy.
  - Paul-Craft 3y ago
    Then neither is water being sold at less than full, free market value. You can't logically have it both ways.
    - HDThoreaun 3y ago
      The overseas are selling their labor at full market value. Not sure what you’re implying.
      - Paul-Craft 3y ago
        I'm saying I don't give a damn if or whether they're "selling their labor at full market value." If that "full market value" is $2/hour or something, then, yes, they absolutely are subsidizing the product they're making. And you know there's a huge power imbalance between employer and employee that's at work here as well. Magnify that times a bunch when that employer is a rich, overseas company that can offer what would be starvation wages at home, but princely wages for the folks in Asia, South America, or Africa.
    - toomim 3y ago
      Water prices are subsidized by the california government for agriculture. Labor prices are not subsidized by china.

henearkr 3y ago

The problem is more where. Water should be expensive where it is scarce, and cheap (or even subsidized) where it is plentiful. Even in different regions inside the same country. This also works as a signal to help water-thirsty industries to locate or relocate themselves.

margalabargala 3y ago
There are good reasons to do things like farming in the desert via irrigation. If water is not an issue, then crops are significantly more productive per acre due to the increased sunlight. Places where water is plentiful tend to be less productive for agriculture due to the increase in cloud cover; a rainy day is a day when the plants get less energy. There's a balance to be struck between using an unsustainable amount of desert water, and using none of it.
- henearkr 3y ago
  I don't think that the energy cost of irrigating in the desert will ever be sustainable. If you have a counter-example, I'm interested. But I do see the possibility of solving the problem by using photovoltaic energy (though maybe not optimally, because not having to move the water would allow to use the electricity for other usages). Bear in mind that the alternative is to grow crops in countries where it is raining most of the time. Plants fare really really well in rainy countries, they don't mind at all that the sun is less present. The only real drawback is the shortened growing period, if the country is too far north or too far south.

freeopinion 3y ago

Why do you think this water is not priced at market value? If a farmer could take their water and sell it for more money to somebody who would then treat it, transport it, and resell it to the public, the farmer would do that. It might be counterintuitive to a lot of people, but if you want to stop farmers from using their water to grow crops, raise the price of potable water. The farmer understands markets very well. They buy and use water based on market values. What you're hearing is a lot of complaining from people who do not understand markets and think that they can dictate market prices just by word alone. Markets don't usually work that way.

pdonis 3y ago
> Why do you think this water is not priced at market value? Because farmers can't take their water and sell it for more money to someone else, and they have no incentive to economize on water usage. Water prices are not set by supply and demand, they are set by government regulation. The "market" that farmers buy water in is not a free market.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Where do you think these Saudi farmers bought the land and water contracts? They bought them from some other farmer. Governments can absolutely buy out water contracts from farmers on the open market. In the cases where water is tied to land title, it can be separated, as is common with other natural resources like natural gas and minerals
specialist 3y ago
Where is the market for water rights in the US West?
- freeopinion 3y ago
  That's kind of like asking, "Where is the market for eggs in the US West?"
  - 3y ago

celtain 3y ago

Just give people money to buy food.

Paul-Craft 3y ago

You know the rest of the world subsides pretty much everything except food for Americans via cheap manufacturing labor, right? Why shouldn't the rest of the world get its due?

HDThoreaun 3y ago
People agreeing to work for lower wages than they do in the US is not a subsidy.
- Paul-Craft 3y ago
  Then neither is water being sold at less than full, free market value. You can't logically have it both ways.
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    The overseas are selling their labor at full market value. Not sure what you’re implying.
    - Paul-Craft 3y ago
      I'm saying I don't give a damn if or whether they're "selling their labor at full market value." If that "full market value" is $2/hour or something, then, yes, they absolutely are subsidizing the product they're making. And you know there's a huge power imbalance between employer and employee that's at work here as well. Magnify that times a bunch when that employer is a rich, overseas company that can offer what would be starvation wages at home, but princely wages for the folks in Asia, South America, or Africa.
  - toomim 3y ago
    Water prices are subsidized by the california government for agriculture. Labor prices are not subsidized by china.