4 ms·

> The problem is that farmers don't get the water from the faucet, but through archaic water rights to rivers, lakes, wells, etc. By "archaic" do you mean they

> The problem is that farmers don't get the water from the faucet, but through archaic water rights to rivers, lakes, wells, etc. By "archaic" do you mean they got there first? Because farming has been around in (e.g.) Arizona for >100 years, and there weren't any problems back then when there was mostly a whole lot of nothin' in the region. * https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/an-arizona-farmer-on-how-to-grow-alfalfa-in-the/id1056200096?i=1000620995337 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/an-arizona-farmer-on-h... * https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/understanding-the-real-fight-over-water-in-arizona/id1056200096?i=1000621126694 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/understanding-the-real... Then folks decided that building large population centres in the middle of the desert was a good idea, and here we are. It should also be noted that Native Americans were also living and farming before white settlers arrived: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix,_Arizona#Early_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix,_Arizona#Early_history Though it's not like having large civilizations living in a desert is unique to the American (South-)West: see Mesopotamia and Egypt. They're just usually huddle around rivers.

mjhay 3y ago
There's massive population in the desert now, but that's not where the water is going. The vast majority of water is used by agriculture, which has also expanded massively in the same time frame. It's a red herring that natives and early settlers farmed in the same areas - the water they used is nothing compared to modern agriculture. Efficient water usage (e.g. drip irrigation) and not growing comically unsuitable crops like alfalfa would solve this problem, even in the face of climate change.
- ticviking 3y ago
  The point is that there was enough water in the desert until people decided building massive retirement communities in the desert was a good idea.
  - mjhay 3y ago
    That's simply not true. The retirement communities simply aren't why the water shortage is happening. It's agriculture, not residential use. The water usage numbers are well known. You're just assuming that population growth must have caused the water shortage, while ignoring the much greater increases in agricultural usage over the same timeframe.
    - peteradio 3y ago
      The reason for the complaining is the population not the farmers. Why do you think they built the retirement communities in the desert? That's right! The land was gobsmackingly cheap! Why? Because the land was reeeeeeally shitty because the water sources were so poor! Would you be so defensive of the residents if this was Florida coast?
      - mjhay 3y ago
        This is really quite simple: farmers use the vast majority of the water. Residential use is small in comparison. We're talking about water. Land use is only indirectly related. It's illogical on its face to say that the main problem is residential use when farming uses vastly more.
chasd00 3y ago
that's a good point, maybe the cities should be the ones forced to move out.
vel0city 3y ago
I imagine the amount of agriculture going on >100 years ago is but a fraction of the amount of agriculture happening today. Or are you also arguing that the amount of agriculture in the region stayed constant over the last >100 years? Its pretty disingenuous to argue the impacts of agriculture today is the same as >100 years ago and act like all the expansion has been the cities.
- hot_gril 3y ago
  Probably both expanded, but the difference is the farmers secured water rights first and the cities didn't. I don't see a way to take away water rights; there just needs to be a way for cities to purchase the water.

mjhay 3y ago

There's massive population in the desert now, but that's not where the water is going. The vast majority of water is used by agriculture, which has also expanded massively in the same time frame. It's a red herring that natives and early settlers farmed in the same areas - the water they used is nothing compared to modern agriculture. Efficient water usage (e.g. drip irrigation) and not growing comically unsuitable crops like alfalfa would solve this problem, even in the face of climate change.

ticviking 3y ago
The point is that there was enough water in the desert until people decided building massive retirement communities in the desert was a good idea.
- mjhay 3y ago
  That's simply not true. The retirement communities simply aren't why the water shortage is happening. It's agriculture, not residential use. The water usage numbers are well known. You're just assuming that population growth must have caused the water shortage, while ignoring the much greater increases in agricultural usage over the same timeframe.
  - peteradio 3y ago
    The reason for the complaining is the population not the farmers. Why do you think they built the retirement communities in the desert? That's right! The land was gobsmackingly cheap! Why? Because the land was reeeeeeally shitty because the water sources were so poor! Would you be so defensive of the residents if this was Florida coast?
    - mjhay 3y ago
      This is really quite simple: farmers use the vast majority of the water. Residential use is small in comparison. We're talking about water. Land use is only indirectly related. It's illogical on its face to say that the main problem is residential use when farming uses vastly more.

chasd00 3y ago

that's a good point, maybe the cities should be the ones forced to move out.

vel0city 3y ago

I imagine the amount of agriculture going on >100 years ago is but a fraction of the amount of agriculture happening today. Or are you also arguing that the amount of agriculture in the region stayed constant over the last >100 years? Its pretty disingenuous to argue the impacts of agriculture today is the same as >100 years ago and act like all the expansion has been the cities.

hot_gril 3y ago
Probably both expanded, but the difference is the farmers secured water rights first and the cities didn't. I don't see a way to take away water rights; there just needs to be a way for cities to purchase the water.