6 ms·

Don’t ignore what’s downstream from farming - food. Cheap water is subsidizing cheap food.

by jibe 3y ago

0xB31B1B 3y ago
No, it’s not. The surplus created by cheap water is captured by the hedge funds buying up artificially cheap water rights then selling foods at market rates for a large profit. Growing alfalfa in California for cows in China or Saudi Arabia does not impact the price of California beef in a measurable way.
- kolanos 3y ago
  Yes, it is. Have you quantified this claim? Do you know how little alfalfa is exported? > Based on USDA data for 2022, only 4% of all U.S. dry hay produced and 6.5% of all harvested alfalfa hay entered the export market. So 96% of all hay and 93.5% of alfalfa is used domestically. [0]: https://hayandforage.com/article-4300-hay-exports-in-2022-offered-mixed-news.html https://hayandforage.com/article-4300-hay-exports-in-2022-of...
  - cjbgkagh 3y ago
    Price is set at the margins
  - pdonis 3y ago
    Evidently this must vary a lot by state, since the article under discussion says that 70% of California grown alfalfa is exported to Japan and China.
  - coryrc 3y ago
    Most hay isn't grown in California, it's in the Midwest.
s0rce 3y ago
Sadly, not that simple, few major issues here, we are exporting extremely low value, high water, crops overseas, like alfalfa. We are also growing these low value, high water crops to feed to animals (which also consume a lot of water). We don't need to subsidize these activities, particularly not the former.
- kolanos 3y ago
  Alfalfa is "extremely low value" by what metric? It is a rich food source for livestock. Alfalfa is also one of the most water efficient crops there is due to its deep roots, high yield and perennial nature. [1] A lot of "studies" on water efficiency of crops ignore yield, which is kind of the whole point of agriculture. And regarding your export claim: > Based on USDA data for 2022, only 4% of all U.S. dry hay produced and 6.5% of all harvested alfalfa hay entered the export market. [0]: https://hayandforage.com/article-4300-hay-exports-in-2022-offered-mixed-news.html https://hayandforage.com/article-4300-hay-exports-in-2022-of... [1]: https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=17721 https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=1772...
  - shagie 3y ago
    The final paragraph of the article: > In the seven Western states of Arizona, California, Idaho, Nevada, Oregon, Utah, and Washington, hay exports play a much larger role in impacting both markets and prices. Based on USDA export and hay production data for those states, 19% of their alfalfa production was exported in 2022 and 26% of the grass production found its way into shipping containers. As such, hay prices in the Western states play a large role in setting market prices.
  - opo 3y ago
    There might be other ways of measuring water efficiency of crops, but from a quick google search, most sources seem to consider alfalfa to not be very water efficient. For example: >...According to an analysis by the conservation non-profit Pacific Institute, alfalfa production in California uses around 5 feet an acre (6167.4 cubic metres) of water, making it one of the most water-intensive crops alongside the likes of almonds, pistachios and rice. Crops such as sugar beets use roughly 3 feet an acre (3,700 cubic metres), and dry beans as little as 1.5 feet each acre (1,850 cubic metres). https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/12/colorado-drought-water-alfalfa-farmers-conservation#:~:text=According%20to%20an%20analysis%20by,of%20almonds%2C%20pistachios%20and%20rice https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/12/colorado.... >>...Based on USDA data for 2022, only 4% of all U.S. dry hay produced and 6.5% of all harvested alfalfa hay entered the export market. It is misleading to just talk about the entire US production of alfalfa since in many places water is not nearly as limited as it is in California. >...Government figures compiled by Putnam and fellow researchers William Matthews and Daniel Sumner show about 15 percent of alfalfa and more than 44 percent of other types of hay produced in the West have been exported in recent years. >The share exported from Southern California farms is significantly higher than the regional average, the researchers said, because the closeness of the port makes trucking costs relatively inexpensive. That percentage is from an article in 2017 - it sounds like the percentage today is at least that high or higher. https://www.desertsun.com/story/news/environment/2017/09/28/booming-demand-hay-asia-middle-east-driving-agribusiness-california-desert/702400001/ https://www.desertsun.com/story/news/environment/2017/09/28/...
margalabargala 3y ago
Sure, but perhaps there need to be more regulations on who gets that cheap water. I'm fine with American taxpayers subsidizing water so that American food is cheaper for Americans. I'm less fine with American taxpayers subsidizing Saudi Arabian food. Perhaps any water used to grow something that is exported could be priced at market value, while water pricing for products consumed domestically can remain the same.
- henearkr 3y ago
  The problem is more where. Water should be expensive where it is scarce, and cheap (or even subsidized) where it is plentiful. Even in different regions inside the same country. This also works as a signal to help water-thirsty industries to locate or relocate themselves.
  - margalabargala 3y ago
    There are good reasons to do things like farming in the desert via irrigation. If water is not an issue, then crops are significantly more productive per acre due to the increased sunlight. Places where water is plentiful tend to be less productive for agriculture due to the increase in cloud cover; a rainy day is a day when the plants get less energy. There's a balance to be struck between using an unsustainable amount of desert water, and using none of it.
    - henearkr 3y ago
      I don't think that the energy cost of irrigating in the desert will ever be sustainable. If you have a counter-example, I'm interested. But I do see the possibility of solving the problem by using photovoltaic energy (though maybe not optimally, because not having to move the water would allow to use the electricity for other usages). Bear in mind that the alternative is to grow crops in countries where it is raining most of the time. Plants fare really really well in rainy countries, they don't mind at all that the sun is less present. The only real drawback is the shortened growing period, if the country is too far north or too far south.
- 3y ago

Don’t ignore what’s downstream from farming - food. Cheap water is subsidizing cheap food.

by jibe 3y ago

Don’t ignore what’s downstream from farming - food. Cheap water is subsidizing cheap food.

No, it’s not. The surplus created by cheap water is captured by the hedge funds buying up artificially cheap water rights then selling foods at market rates for a large profit. Growing alfalfa in California for cows in China or Saudi Arabia does not impact the price of California beef in a measurable way.

kolanos 3y ago
Yes, it is. Have you quantified this claim? Do you know how little alfalfa is exported? > Based on USDA data for 2022, only 4% of all U.S. dry hay produced and 6.5% of all harvested alfalfa hay entered the export market. So 96% of all hay and 93.5% of alfalfa is used domestically. [0]: https://hayandforage.com/article-4300-hay-exports-in-2022-offered-mixed-news.html https://hayandforage.com/article-4300-hay-exports-in-2022-of...
- cjbgkagh 3y ago
  Price is set at the margins
- pdonis 3y ago
  Evidently this must vary a lot by state, since the article under discussion says that 70% of California grown alfalfa is exported to Japan and China.
- coryrc 3y ago
  Most hay isn't grown in California, it's in the Midwest.

s0rce 3y ago

Sadly, not that simple, few major issues here, we are exporting extremely low value, high water, crops overseas, like alfalfa. We are also growing these low value, high water crops to feed to animals (which also consume a lot of water). We don't need to subsidize these activities, particularly not the former.

kolanos 3y ago
Alfalfa is "extremely low value" by what metric? It is a rich food source for livestock. Alfalfa is also one of the most water efficient crops there is due to its deep roots, high yield and perennial nature. [1] A lot of "studies" on water efficiency of crops ignore yield, which is kind of the whole point of agriculture. And regarding your export claim: > Based on USDA data for 2022, only 4% of all U.S. dry hay produced and 6.5% of all harvested alfalfa hay entered the export market. [0]: https://hayandforage.com/article-4300-hay-exports-in-2022-offered-mixed-news.html https://hayandforage.com/article-4300-hay-exports-in-2022-of... [1]: https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=17721 https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=1772...
- shagie 3y ago
  The final paragraph of the article: > In the seven Western states of Arizona, California, Idaho, Nevada, Oregon, Utah, and Washington, hay exports play a much larger role in impacting both markets and prices. Based on USDA export and hay production data for those states, 19% of their alfalfa production was exported in 2022 and 26% of the grass production found its way into shipping containers. As such, hay prices in the Western states play a large role in setting market prices.
- opo 3y ago
  There might be other ways of measuring water efficiency of crops, but from a quick google search, most sources seem to consider alfalfa to not be very water efficient. For example: >...According to an analysis by the conservation non-profit Pacific Institute, alfalfa production in California uses around 5 feet an acre (6167.4 cubic metres) of water, making it one of the most water-intensive crops alongside the likes of almonds, pistachios and rice. Crops such as sugar beets use roughly 3 feet an acre (3,700 cubic metres), and dry beans as little as 1.5 feet each acre (1,850 cubic metres). https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/12/colorado-drought-water-alfalfa-farmers-conservation#:~:text=According%20to%20an%20analysis%20by,of%20almonds%2C%20pistachios%20and%20rice https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/12/colorado.... >>...Based on USDA data for 2022, only 4% of all U.S. dry hay produced and 6.5% of all harvested alfalfa hay entered the export market. It is misleading to just talk about the entire US production of alfalfa since in many places water is not nearly as limited as it is in California. >...Government figures compiled by Putnam and fellow researchers William Matthews and Daniel Sumner show about 15 percent of alfalfa and more than 44 percent of other types of hay produced in the West have been exported in recent years. >The share exported from Southern California farms is significantly higher than the regional average, the researchers said, because the closeness of the port makes trucking costs relatively inexpensive. That percentage is from an article in 2017 - it sounds like the percentage today is at least that high or higher. https://www.desertsun.com/story/news/environment/2017/09/28/booming-demand-hay-asia-middle-east-driving-agribusiness-california-desert/702400001/ https://www.desertsun.com/story/news/environment/2017/09/28/...

margalabargala 3y ago

Sure, but perhaps there need to be more regulations on who gets that cheap water. I'm fine with American taxpayers subsidizing water so that American food is cheaper for Americans. I'm less fine with American taxpayers subsidizing Saudi Arabian food. Perhaps any water used to grow something that is exported could be priced at market value, while water pricing for products consumed domestically can remain the same.

henearkr 3y ago
The problem is more where. Water should be expensive where it is scarce, and cheap (or even subsidized) where it is plentiful. Even in different regions inside the same country. This also works as a signal to help water-thirsty industries to locate or relocate themselves.
- margalabargala 3y ago
  There are good reasons to do things like farming in the desert via irrigation. If water is not an issue, then crops are significantly more productive per acre due to the increased sunlight. Places where water is plentiful tend to be less productive for agriculture due to the increase in cloud cover; a rainy day is a day when the plants get less energy. There's a balance to be struck between using an unsustainable amount of desert water, and using none of it.
  - henearkr 3y ago
    I don't think that the energy cost of irrigating in the desert will ever be sustainable. If you have a counter-example, I'm interested. But I do see the possibility of solving the problem by using photovoltaic energy (though maybe not optimally, because not having to move the water would allow to use the electricity for other usages). Bear in mind that the alternative is to grow crops in countries where it is raining most of the time. Plants fare really really well in rainy countries, they don't mind at all that the sun is less present. The only real drawback is the shortened growing period, if the country is too far north or too far south.
3y ago