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Oh, I don't know. How about you just _don't_ give your kids a smartphone? This reads very much like appealing to tobacco companies; "hey could you, um, you kn

Oh, I don't know. How about you just _don't_ give your kids a smartphone? This reads very much like appealing to tobacco companies; "hey could you, um, you know, make this less addictive and carcinogenic?" I have five kids. The oldest two have friends that have various devices. But I don't care about their friends and don't cave. Believe me, it's really not that hard. Kids whine about all sorts of things, just add wanting a smart phone to that list. As an added bonus they get a lesson in not giving in to social pressure. Parents parenting is the only way to solve this problem. And yes, some parents aren't going to do a good job parenting. It's the same with tobacco, drugs, alcohol, or any other dangerous behavior. I honestly can't wrap my mind around how people think regulation is going to do that job for them. No amount of regulation outside of an outright ban is going to make this go away. Sure, some guardrails can help, but at the end of the day people have to be taught how to avoid bad behavior on their own.

esarbe 3y ago
> I honestly can't wrap my mind around how people think regulation is going to do that job for them. It works pretty well for alcohol and for tobacco. With regards to tobacco, there's been a clear trend towards less tobacco usage in teenagers since 1997. that's when awareness campaigns began. I don't think that people think that "regulation is going to do [parenting] for them". I think most people that let their children use smartphones simply don't care too much or are not aware about the serious problems arising from excessive smartphone usage.
- voxic11 3y ago
  But don't most children get smartphones from their parents? It's still legal for parents to give their children alcohol or tobacco if they want to. Minors just can't buy it (and in the case of alcohol possess it except when served it by their parents). So imo those laws aren't intended to replace parenting. Its still up to parents to decide whether or not their minor children get access to alcohol and tobacco.
  - esarbe 3y ago
    These laws - as I see it - are primarily about framing. No, they won't stop parents from buying smartphones for their kids. But just as with seat belts or smoking indoors, they will frame giving one to a kid as harmful. This will give lawfully inclined people a reason to pay attention and - through the appliance of social pressure - nudge other people into compliance.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
kobalsky 3y ago
are you gonna let them buy their own phones when they start saving enough money?
- wmichelin 3y ago
  Would you let your child buy tobacco once they had enough money? I'm sure there's a certain age where disallowing your child to use a smartphone would be damaging to them- but up until maybe even 16 years old - I don't see value in allowing it. I have a much younger brother and I can watch him being mentally harmed from having access to a smartphone. And even worse, the UIs are so simple, the kid doesn't even get computer skills out of it like we did. I myself got some mental illness out of the deal but at least found gainful employment in the process.
  - zen_1 3y ago
    I benefited greatly from having access to Uber and GPS maps as a teen (I started using those at 12-13 iirc). They gave me a lot of freedom and independence from relying solely on my parents or shitty+expensive taxis for transportation.
joseda-hg 3y ago
(Not a parent, but have been thinking about this for a long time) There are situations where I'd think not giving a device to my kids wouldn't necesarily be all benefits People that do get smartphones will develop ways of interacting, which you only "get" when you participate which you can't even know you're missing out, because you don't know what you don't know A lot of it currently is "codified" in GenZ/Gen Alfa quirks, because they were the first to get smartphones so young, but it is there, and it can cause friction with older generations that feel it's all nonsensical
dotandgtfo 3y ago
First, great that you're able to do that. I support that fully and hope to do the same. However, I'm sure there are a lot of parents that wish they could do something like that but circumstances prevent it. E.g. lack of awareness, local societal pressure, or the need for it (e.g. bus ticket apps) > No amount of regulation outside of an outright ban is going to make this go away. How about regulation mandating voluntary parental controls mechanisms on social media platforms or devices? Or how about regulation mandating that companies share certain aggregate usage data to get insight into the scope of the issue so that ultimately parents and society can be better informed of the damage being caused? Or regulations about phones at school so that teachers and schools have effective tools (e.g. parentally consented confiscations). Sure, these regulations may not make this go away but it's high time that we take a closer look at the consequences of social media and smartphone use that has exploded the last ~15 years. Not to mention this is the EU. I think you'd find broad support in the populace here for at least taking a stab at the issue.
McP 3y ago
I agree with you but also: I gave my young daughter her own Android phone last week. Google Family Link is fantastic. It prevents her from using a web browser or any other things I don't want her to do. All she can do is message people, call people & look at maps. It turns itself the phone off an hour before bedtime. She can get headlines from Google search, which I didn't expect, but it's not proven a problem since the links can't be opened. The usage tracker shows she spent almost an hour messaging/calling yesterday, which is more than I expected, but if it gets too much then I can limit it. One happy customer here.
- mixmastamyk 3y ago
  Nice features, with a helping of ad company surveillance on the side.
  - networkchad 3y ago
    [dead]
- n2dasun 3y ago
  When your kid turns 13 (or maybe it was 14), Google decides they're an adult now and takes the reins away from you. We just went through this with our teen
  - Vendan 3y ago
    Google asks your kid, and they can pick either way. You can tell them "Hey, this is a device I bought for you, using a cell phone service I pay for, so either reenroll in supervision or I'm taking my device back". A little harsh, but... then you still get roughly the same level of control as before.
    - n2dasun 3y ago
      Looks like you're right. I don't remember it occurring this way in late 2021, so I wonder if the implementation changed at all since then, but it could also be poor attention to detail on my part
frankohn 3y ago
I agree that the best thing is to not give them smartphones but sometimes parents do not agree between them. Sometimes close friends and family will say you are too hard on your kids. Some parents just don't realise how bad this is or they don't care. Sometimes it's the grandparents who give them the smartphone and what you wanted to do is nullified and you are seen as bad because you deny to give them something "so good". No, all in all, a global, robust solution need to be imposed by the governments. Like for tobacco, like for alcohol or drugs. I have the problem with my daughter and I hate all this social media and stupid ad-based videogames in the smartphones. This is when technology makes the world worst, the companies just seek their interest.
- serialNumber 3y ago
  Respectfully - I must say, I feel as though you have a lot more control over how your daughter uses her smartphone than you think you do. In my eyes, smartphone usage cannot be compared to toxins like alcohol/drugs/tobacco, a global solution is impractical in this case.
  - dotandgtfo 3y ago
    I don't have kids, so that aspect I can't comment about. But I was a kid one time and keeping me away from a screen (after I got the taste of them) was challenging. They caved. A direct comparison to toxins is hard indeed, but how about gambling? It obviously has enough addiction potential to induce certain people into compulsive and destructive behaviour warranting regulation. The same research that's been done in the gambling industry is being used in social media and especially mobile gaming today. A global solution != a European solution/framework.
mixmastamyk 3y ago
No, support from society is crucial. Otherwise your parenting will be subverted at every turn.
squokko 3y ago
Your kids are using their friends' phones and you don't know what they're doing on them.
sdfghswe 3y ago
You go. Seconded. These are just lazy parents. Let them get their kids addicted, I don't care.
justinclift 3y ago
That feels like you're pointing out the barn door is open after the horse has already bolted. The EU approach here seems more like "what do we do to fix the situation as it stands?" kind of thing. So, probably more practical.
squarefoot 3y ago
> Oh, I don't know. How about you just _don't_ give your kids a smartphone? That would be the ideal solution, however imagine being the only kid in the class who doesn't have a smartphone; that would be a bullying experience waiting to happen. Unfortunately finding the right balance between giving only what is right and not turning the kid into a misfit/loner is very hard.

esarbe 3y ago

> I honestly can't wrap my mind around how people think regulation is going to do that job for them. It works pretty well for alcohol and for tobacco. With regards to tobacco, there's been a clear trend towards less tobacco usage in teenagers since 1997. that's when awareness campaigns began. I don't think that people think that "regulation is going to do [parenting] for them". I think most people that let their children use smartphones simply don't care too much or are not aware about the serious problems arising from excessive smartphone usage.

voxic11 3y ago
But don't most children get smartphones from their parents? It's still legal for parents to give their children alcohol or tobacco if they want to. Minors just can't buy it (and in the case of alcohol possess it except when served it by their parents). So imo those laws aren't intended to replace parenting. Its still up to parents to decide whether or not their minor children get access to alcohol and tobacco.
- esarbe 3y ago
  These laws - as I see it - are primarily about framing. No, they won't stop parents from buying smartphones for their kids. But just as with seat belts or smoking indoors, they will frame giving one to a kid as harmful. This will give lawfully inclined people a reason to pay attention and - through the appliance of social pressure - nudge other people into compliance.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

kobalsky 3y ago

are you gonna let them buy their own phones when they start saving enough money?

wmichelin 3y ago
Would you let your child buy tobacco once they had enough money? I'm sure there's a certain age where disallowing your child to use a smartphone would be damaging to them- but up until maybe even 16 years old - I don't see value in allowing it. I have a much younger brother and I can watch him being mentally harmed from having access to a smartphone. And even worse, the UIs are so simple, the kid doesn't even get computer skills out of it like we did. I myself got some mental illness out of the deal but at least found gainful employment in the process.
- zen_1 3y ago
  I benefited greatly from having access to Uber and GPS maps as a teen (I started using those at 12-13 iirc). They gave me a lot of freedom and independence from relying solely on my parents or shitty+expensive taxis for transportation.

joseda-hg 3y ago

(Not a parent, but have been thinking about this for a long time) There are situations where I'd think not giving a device to my kids wouldn't necesarily be all benefits People that do get smartphones will develop ways of interacting, which you only "get" when you participate which you can't even know you're missing out, because you don't know what you don't know A lot of it currently is "codified" in GenZ/Gen Alfa quirks, because they were the first to get smartphones so young, but it is there, and it can cause friction with older generations that feel it's all nonsensical

dotandgtfo 3y ago

First, great that you're able to do that. I support that fully and hope to do the same. However, I'm sure there are a lot of parents that wish they could do something like that but circumstances prevent it. E.g. lack of awareness, local societal pressure, or the need for it (e.g. bus ticket apps) > No amount of regulation outside of an outright ban is going to make this go away. How about regulation mandating voluntary parental controls mechanisms on social media platforms or devices? Or how about regulation mandating that companies share certain aggregate usage data to get insight into the scope of the issue so that ultimately parents and society can be better informed of the damage being caused? Or regulations about phones at school so that teachers and schools have effective tools (e.g. parentally consented confiscations). Sure, these regulations may not make this go away but it's high time that we take a closer look at the consequences of social media and smartphone use that has exploded the last ~15 years. Not to mention this is the EU. I think you'd find broad support in the populace here for at least taking a stab at the issue.

McP 3y ago

I agree with you but also: I gave my young daughter her own Android phone last week. Google Family Link is fantastic. It prevents her from using a web browser or any other things I don't want her to do. All she can do is message people, call people & look at maps. It turns itself the phone off an hour before bedtime. She can get headlines from Google search, which I didn't expect, but it's not proven a problem since the links can't be opened. The usage tracker shows she spent almost an hour messaging/calling yesterday, which is more than I expected, but if it gets too much then I can limit it. One happy customer here.

mixmastamyk 3y ago
Nice features, with a helping of ad company surveillance on the side.
- networkchad 3y ago
  [dead]
n2dasun 3y ago
When your kid turns 13 (or maybe it was 14), Google decides they're an adult now and takes the reins away from you. We just went through this with our teen
- Vendan 3y ago
  Google asks your kid, and they can pick either way. You can tell them "Hey, this is a device I bought for you, using a cell phone service I pay for, so either reenroll in supervision or I'm taking my device back". A little harsh, but... then you still get roughly the same level of control as before.
  - n2dasun 3y ago
    Looks like you're right. I don't remember it occurring this way in late 2021, so I wonder if the implementation changed at all since then, but it could also be poor attention to detail on my part

frankohn 3y ago

I agree that the best thing is to not give them smartphones but sometimes parents do not agree between them. Sometimes close friends and family will say you are too hard on your kids. Some parents just don't realise how bad this is or they don't care. Sometimes it's the grandparents who give them the smartphone and what you wanted to do is nullified and you are seen as bad because you deny to give them something "so good". No, all in all, a global, robust solution need to be imposed by the governments. Like for tobacco, like for alcohol or drugs. I have the problem with my daughter and I hate all this social media and stupid ad-based videogames in the smartphones. This is when technology makes the world worst, the companies just seek their interest.

serialNumber 3y ago
Respectfully - I must say, I feel as though you have a lot more control over how your daughter uses her smartphone than you think you do. In my eyes, smartphone usage cannot be compared to toxins like alcohol/drugs/tobacco, a global solution is impractical in this case.
- dotandgtfo 3y ago
  I don't have kids, so that aspect I can't comment about. But I was a kid one time and keeping me away from a screen (after I got the taste of them) was challenging. They caved. A direct comparison to toxins is hard indeed, but how about gambling? It obviously has enough addiction potential to induce certain people into compulsive and destructive behaviour warranting regulation. The same research that's been done in the gambling industry is being used in social media and especially mobile gaming today. A global solution != a European solution/framework.

mixmastamyk 3y ago

No, support from society is crucial. Otherwise your parenting will be subverted at every turn.

squokko 3y ago

Your kids are using their friends' phones and you don't know what they're doing on them.

sdfghswe 3y ago

You go. Seconded. These are just lazy parents. Let them get their kids addicted, I don't care.

justinclift 3y ago

That feels like you're pointing out the barn door is open after the horse has already bolted. The EU approach here seems more like "what do we do to fix the situation as it stands?" kind of thing. So, probably more practical.

squarefoot 3y ago

> Oh, I don't know. How about you just _don't_ give your kids a smartphone? That would be the ideal solution, however imagine being the only kid in the class who doesn't have a smartphone; that would be a bullying experience waiting to happen. Unfortunately finding the right balance between giving only what is right and not turning the kid into a misfit/loner is very hard.