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It was underpowered for its price compared to windows machines. The fact that it could run Quake3 is kind of the point as it didn’t need “all that power.” The

It was underpowered for its price compared to windows machines. The fact that it could run Quake3 is kind of the point as it didn’t need “all that power.” The complaint I had was that for the price I could get a more powerful wintel box. Comically this is no longer true with mac laptops and it’s kind of weird to see it flipped where MacBooks have powerful processors and decent levels of ram (although sticking with 8gb in the air seems like they are just sticking to the principle that you don’t need lots of ram rather than saving the $9 for 16 or 32).

mattl 3y ago
Is that true though? Could you get a Wintel machine with better hardware including the little things like USB, FireWire and Ethernet and even WiFi? 15 inch screen capable of 1024x768?
- purpleflame1257 3y ago
  In the iMac form factor? Probably not.
- bluedino 3y ago
  Of course. You had to wait a year for the eMachines clone. But remember the iMac didn't have FireWire or Wifi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMachines_eOne https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMachines_eOne And Compaq had the all-in-one form factor back in 1995 https://twitter.com/InsaneWardy/status/841219290539970560 https://twitter.com/InsaneWardy/status/841219290539970560
  - mattl 3y ago
    the iMac did have wifi and Firewire a year later, not at launch.
  - epc 3y ago
    Wifi was kind of useless until 802.11b was agreed. I used one of the early Cisco(?) wireless adaptors circa 1997 and 1998 and…it was mostly unpleasant except for the fact that it was wireless (I don't know if it was 802.11 or a predecessor protocol).
- prepend 3y ago
  I would like a Unix-based laptop. So I won’t consider a windows or chromeos laptop, but would a Linux. It’s not so much how bad the windows os (I have to admin my kids gaming pc) but it’s inability to run many dev packages that are first or only on Unix. It’s possible to run WSL or Cygwin or other Unix interfaces and get stuff working. But it’s extra steps and I want to simplify.
  - mattl 3y ago
    Wrong thread? This is about the 1998 iMac.
- karmelapple 3y ago
  As mentioned elsewhere, you couldn't get WiFi on basically anything, since 802.11b wasn't really available yet. I would strongly argue Apple was the leading force in popularizing wireless internet on laptops and desktops, and they didn't have it on the iMac because their AirPort 802.11b product wouldn't be available to anyone for another year. Instead, it came out the following year with the introduction of the iBook. [1] FireWire did not exist on the iMac right away though... but it also was not at all common on Wintel machines at the time. 10/100 Base-T Ethernet, something standard on even the original iMac [2], was also not commonplace on Wintel machines. Packing a 56k modem in from the start was also a nice move on Apple's part to ensure you had the chance to get the fastest internet possible over a standard landline, which is how the majority of internet users accessed the internet at the time. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirPort https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirPort 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMac_G3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMac_G3
  - mattl 3y ago
    The only time I saw Firewire on a PC it was on a Sony VAIO, which makes sense as their cameras had it. Even then I think the same machine had ethernet from a PCMCIA card with a dongle... later we had some Xircom (spelling?) PCMCIA cards that could take up two slots and deliver a full size ethernet jack without a dongle.
gumby 3y ago
> although sticking with 8gb in the air seems like they are just sticking to the principle that you don’t need lots of ram I think it's part of the product line differentiation. I do all my development on a macbook air (well, some of the compilation is done on a remote machine, fr code that will run there). It's great: conveniently very light and with plenty of power. Sure, some people need a ton of VMs, but I don't. But Apple points out that if you're a "professional" you ought to be using a "Pro" machine and the RAM is one way they do it.
goosedragons 3y ago
They aren't really. There are faster Intel and Ryzen CPUs for far less than what Apple asks for an M2 Max. You can get an Asus Vivobook S with an Intel i9 13900H, 1TB SSD, 16GB RAM, HiDPI 15" OLED screen for $1100, the same price as a 13" M2 MBA with 256GB SSD and 8GB RAM. The i9 13900H will outperform the M2 Max too. Really the only place the Mac wins is efficiency and against Intel rivals GPU performance. And if you don't care as much about having as nice a screen you can usually find something with a better discrete GPU at the same price.
- p_j_w 3y ago
  > You can get an Asus Vivobook S with an Intel i9 13900H, 1TB SSD, 16GB RAM, HiDPI 15" OLED screen for $1100 Yes, but then you’re stuck with an Asus. Having been there before, that’s a hard pass. The real comparison for Macbooks are higher end models like Thinkpads.
  - jwells89 3y ago
    And there are very few laptops that can compete on metrics like fan noise and ability to run at full performance unplugged without nuking the battery. It might sound silly but this a big thing for me. It’s disconcerting for a laptop to sound like an angry banshee when I’m pushing it, and my 16” M1 Max MBP doesn’t. It’s also why I sold the gaming laptop and replaced it with a desktop, because quiet high performance x86 laptops are apparently hard to come by.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      It really depends on the workload. I was working Sysops for a Mac-based shop during the Apple Silicon announcement, and we had a lot of broken Docker containers on ARM. When I left, your options as a Mac dev was: - Use Apple Silicon, run Docker in QEMU and enjoy idle temps of 70-80c when building for production OR - Use an old Intel Mac, use "native" Docker and get slightly shorter build times and a marginally cooler system Looking back on it, the only engineers there with quiet laptops were the ones using Linux on x86 hardware. It was simply what we deployed to, as an SaaS business.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

mattl 3y ago

Is that true though? Could you get a Wintel machine with better hardware including the little things like USB, FireWire and Ethernet and even WiFi? 15 inch screen capable of 1024x768?

purpleflame1257 3y ago
In the iMac form factor? Probably not.
bluedino 3y ago
Of course. You had to wait a year for the eMachines clone. But remember the iMac didn't have FireWire or Wifi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMachines_eOne https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMachines_eOne And Compaq had the all-in-one form factor back in 1995 https://twitter.com/InsaneWardy/status/841219290539970560 https://twitter.com/InsaneWardy/status/841219290539970560
- mattl 3y ago
  the iMac did have wifi and Firewire a year later, not at launch.
- epc 3y ago
  Wifi was kind of useless until 802.11b was agreed. I used one of the early Cisco(?) wireless adaptors circa 1997 and 1998 and…it was mostly unpleasant except for the fact that it was wireless (I don't know if it was 802.11 or a predecessor protocol).
prepend 3y ago
I would like a Unix-based laptop. So I won’t consider a windows or chromeos laptop, but would a Linux. It’s not so much how bad the windows os (I have to admin my kids gaming pc) but it’s inability to run many dev packages that are first or only on Unix. It’s possible to run WSL or Cygwin or other Unix interfaces and get stuff working. But it’s extra steps and I want to simplify.
- mattl 3y ago
  Wrong thread? This is about the 1998 iMac.
karmelapple 3y ago
As mentioned elsewhere, you couldn't get WiFi on basically anything, since 802.11b wasn't really available yet. I would strongly argue Apple was the leading force in popularizing wireless internet on laptops and desktops, and they didn't have it on the iMac because their AirPort 802.11b product wouldn't be available to anyone for another year. Instead, it came out the following year with the introduction of the iBook. [1] FireWire did not exist on the iMac right away though... but it also was not at all common on Wintel machines at the time. 10/100 Base-T Ethernet, something standard on even the original iMac [2], was also not commonplace on Wintel machines. Packing a 56k modem in from the start was also a nice move on Apple's part to ensure you had the chance to get the fastest internet possible over a standard landline, which is how the majority of internet users accessed the internet at the time. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirPort https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirPort 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMac_G3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMac_G3
- mattl 3y ago
  The only time I saw Firewire on a PC it was on a Sony VAIO, which makes sense as their cameras had it. Even then I think the same machine had ethernet from a PCMCIA card with a dongle... later we had some Xircom (spelling?) PCMCIA cards that could take up two slots and deliver a full size ethernet jack without a dongle.

gumby 3y ago

> although sticking with 8gb in the air seems like they are just sticking to the principle that you don’t need lots of ram I think it's part of the product line differentiation. I do all my development on a macbook air (well, some of the compilation is done on a remote machine, fr code that will run there). It's great: conveniently very light and with plenty of power. Sure, some people need a ton of VMs, but I don't. But Apple points out that if you're a "professional" you ought to be using a "Pro" machine and the RAM is one way they do it.

goosedragons 3y ago

They aren't really. There are faster Intel and Ryzen CPUs for far less than what Apple asks for an M2 Max. You can get an Asus Vivobook S with an Intel i9 13900H, 1TB SSD, 16GB RAM, HiDPI 15" OLED screen for $1100, the same price as a 13" M2 MBA with 256GB SSD and 8GB RAM. The i9 13900H will outperform the M2 Max too. Really the only place the Mac wins is efficiency and against Intel rivals GPU performance. And if you don't care as much about having as nice a screen you can usually find something with a better discrete GPU at the same price.

p_j_w 3y ago
> You can get an Asus Vivobook S with an Intel i9 13900H, 1TB SSD, 16GB RAM, HiDPI 15" OLED screen for $1100 Yes, but then you’re stuck with an Asus. Having been there before, that’s a hard pass. The real comparison for Macbooks are higher end models like Thinkpads.
- jwells89 3y ago
  And there are very few laptops that can compete on metrics like fan noise and ability to run at full performance unplugged without nuking the battery. It might sound silly but this a big thing for me. It’s disconcerting for a laptop to sound like an angry banshee when I’m pushing it, and my 16” M1 Max MBP doesn’t. It’s also why I sold the gaming laptop and replaced it with a desktop, because quiet high performance x86 laptops are apparently hard to come by.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    It really depends on the workload. I was working Sysops for a Mac-based shop during the Apple Silicon announcement, and we had a lot of broken Docker containers on ARM. When I left, your options as a Mac dev was: - Use Apple Silicon, run Docker in QEMU and enjoy idle temps of 70-80c when building for production OR - Use an old Intel Mac, use "native" Docker and get slightly shorter build times and a marginally cooler system Looking back on it, the only engineers there with quiet laptops were the ones using Linux on x86 hardware. It was simply what we deployed to, as an SaaS business.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]