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I’ve learned CSS, used Bootstrap, and tried a bunch of other tools. Tailwind ecosystem is the fast approach to building web UIs in my experience. It doesn’t mat

I’ve learned CSS, used Bootstrap, and tried a bunch of other tools. Tailwind ecosystem is the fast approach to building web UIs in my experience. It doesn’t matter if you know CSS or not. Nobody gains if you know CSS per se. People gain when you deliver finished projects. Tailwind helps ship projects faster.

nottorp 3y ago
As a user of web sites, this attitude leads to me paying for your fast shipping in electricity for CPU usage, extra money for extra RAM, plus wear and tear on my nerves because you do what your library allows you to do instead of something usable. Thank you.
- ofcourseyoudo 3y ago
  Yes as we have seen through the years, pure CSS has resulted only in energy-efficient websites that are highly usable. Slash Ess
  - nottorp 3y ago
    If you don't know how the lower level layers under your current abstraction work, you end up on accidentally quadratic. Am I more clear now?
    - afiori 3y ago
      Do you know how Tailwind works? What you say is generally true, but I don't really see how it applies to TW...
      - nottorp 3y ago
        No of course I don't. And due to javascript's reputation, I assumed. Because what I said IS generally true for the js bubble. The sad part is i don't even feel guilty for assuming, because this area of programming has a well deserved reputation. Even if this thing doesn't use javascript, can you guarantee the generated CSS doesn't put the browser's layout engine in an infinite loop or something? Especially without knowing CSS, like the OP suggested it's normal?
        ofcourseyoudo 3y ago
        >Am I more clear now? Nope
        afiori 3y ago
        > can you guarantee the generated CSS doesn't put the browser's layout engine in an infinite loop or something? the way TW aproximatively works is to collect a set of used class names from your code (e.g. flex, min-h-screen, bg-[url(/img/grid.svg)], absolute, etc.) and produce the CSS for those classes. For the random 5 classes above it would produce: .absolute{ position: absolute } .flex{ display: flex } .min-h-screen{ min-height: 100vh } .bg-\[url\(\/img\/grid\.svg\)\]{ background-image: url(/img/grid.svg) } By default TW also includes a CSS reset preamble and defines internal variables. Sometimes the generated css contains complex selectors but as far as I know it is not a common occurrence .space-y-4 > :not([hidden]) ~ :not([hidden]){ --tw-space-y-reverse: 0; margin-top: calc(1rem * calc(1 - var(--tw-space-y-reverse))); margin-bottom: calc(1rem * var(--tw-space-y-reverse)) } In other cases more css variables (custom properties defined in the preamble) are used .-translate-y-1\/2{ --tw-translate-y: -50%; transform: translate(var(--tw-translate-x), var(--tw-translate-y)) rotate(var(--tw-rotate)) skewX(var(--tw-skew-x)) skewY(var(--tw-skew-y)) scaleX(var(--tw-scale-x)) scaleY(var(--tw-scale-y)) } .shadow-xl{ --tw-shadow: 0 20px 25px -5px rgb(0 0 0 / 0.1), 0 8px 10px -6px rgb(0 0 0 / 0.1); --tw-shadow-colored: 0 20px 25px -5px var(--tw-shadow-color), 0 8px 10px -6px var(--tw-shadow-color); box-shadow: var(--tw-ring-offset-shadow, 0 0 #0000), var(--tw-ring-shadow, 0 0 #0000), var(--tw-shadow) } I believe that CSS performance is mostly dominated by size in bytes of the stylesheet, number of properties, complexity of selectors, and frequency of updates. I suspect that TW improves most of these metrics in exchange of bigger html class attributes. https://play.tailwindcss.com/ https://play.tailwindcss.com/
- scrollaway 3y ago
  Tailwind is not a performance hit, anyone who knows how it works knows that. Maybe stop throwing random accusations you can’t back up… it’s such low quality commenting. Edit for the downvoters who don’t know how it works: there’s zero js being run at runtime, it’s a pure css framework that generates as-minimal-as-possible css files. And it’s not class lookups that cause whatever issues parent comment is talking about.
- afiori 3y ago
  Tailwind is not Styled Components, there is no dynamic component to it. In that regard it is pretty similar to Sass. The main effect on performance likely are bigger html documents (which can be optimized) and simpler CSS selectors. In real world usage I would honestly guess that using simpler css selector (with far fewer propagating updates) is a net performance win. (It was one of the showstopper for the :has pseudoclass, for a long time nobody knew of a way to implement it efficiently)
progx 3y ago
That is the point: which kind of projects? You all fight, but nobody says what exactly they develop. A webpage and Tailwind is absolutely fun. An app with reusable complex components, Tailwind is a pain. Themes, dynamic tailwind is a pain, static, tailwind is ok. There are endless possibilities. The problem is, that some people think you can use Tailwind for everything and then they made simple things unnecessary complicated.
- whstl 3y ago
  I disagree 100% with that. I much prefer using Tailwind for complex apps with reusable components. Because then you don't have a lot of repetition, redundancy is as much as BEM. For static webpages (unless it is assembled by a static blog engine or something), I don't particularly enjoy it, because of the repetition. With components+Tailwind you have as much duplication as you'd have with pure BEM. All personal experience and opinion, of course.
  - afiori 3y ago
    I like tailwind but I only ever used it in a JSX context, if I had to author plain html I would likely never choose it.
- openplatypus 3y ago
  Not my experience. We built a full rather complex and feature full application using Tailwind. How? Reusable components (we use Vue, but that’s just one option). I remember this being endorsed approached by Tailwind creator. No complaints.
LocalPCGuy 3y ago
Developers gain if they know CSS. Just like JavaScript - for either, if you understand the underlying base technology, it doesn't matter what framework you are presented with, you can learn the specifics of that framework fairly quickly, in my experience.

nottorp 3y ago

As a user of web sites, this attitude leads to me paying for your fast shipping in electricity for CPU usage, extra money for extra RAM, plus wear and tear on my nerves because you do what your library allows you to do instead of something usable. Thank you.

ofcourseyoudo 3y ago
Yes as we have seen through the years, pure CSS has resulted only in energy-efficient websites that are highly usable. Slash Ess
- nottorp 3y ago
  If you don't know how the lower level layers under your current abstraction work, you end up on accidentally quadratic. Am I more clear now?
  - afiori 3y ago
    Do you know how Tailwind works? What you say is generally true, but I don't really see how it applies to TW...
    - nottorp 3y ago
      No of course I don't. And due to javascript's reputation, I assumed. Because what I said IS generally true for the js bubble. The sad part is i don't even feel guilty for assuming, because this area of programming has a well deserved reputation. Even if this thing doesn't use javascript, can you guarantee the generated CSS doesn't put the browser's layout engine in an infinite loop or something? Especially without knowing CSS, like the OP suggested it's normal?
      - ofcourseyoudo 3y ago
        >Am I more clear now? Nope
      - afiori 3y ago
        > can you guarantee the generated CSS doesn't put the browser's layout engine in an infinite loop or something? the way TW aproximatively works is to collect a set of used class names from your code (e.g. flex, min-h-screen, bg-[url(/img/grid.svg)], absolute, etc.) and produce the CSS for those classes. For the random 5 classes above it would produce: .absolute{ position: absolute } .flex{ display: flex } .min-h-screen{ min-height: 100vh } .bg-\[url\(\/img\/grid\.svg\)\]{ background-image: url(/img/grid.svg) } By default TW also includes a CSS reset preamble and defines internal variables. Sometimes the generated css contains complex selectors but as far as I know it is not a common occurrence .space-y-4 > :not([hidden]) ~ :not([hidden]){ --tw-space-y-reverse: 0; margin-top: calc(1rem * calc(1 - var(--tw-space-y-reverse))); margin-bottom: calc(1rem * var(--tw-space-y-reverse)) } In other cases more css variables (custom properties defined in the preamble) are used .-translate-y-1\/2{ --tw-translate-y: -50%; transform: translate(var(--tw-translate-x), var(--tw-translate-y)) rotate(var(--tw-rotate)) skewX(var(--tw-skew-x)) skewY(var(--tw-skew-y)) scaleX(var(--tw-scale-x)) scaleY(var(--tw-scale-y)) } .shadow-xl{ --tw-shadow: 0 20px 25px -5px rgb(0 0 0 / 0.1), 0 8px 10px -6px rgb(0 0 0 / 0.1); --tw-shadow-colored: 0 20px 25px -5px var(--tw-shadow-color), 0 8px 10px -6px var(--tw-shadow-color); box-shadow: var(--tw-ring-offset-shadow, 0 0 #0000), var(--tw-ring-shadow, 0 0 #0000), var(--tw-shadow) } I believe that CSS performance is mostly dominated by size in bytes of the stylesheet, number of properties, complexity of selectors, and frequency of updates. I suspect that TW improves most of these metrics in exchange of bigger html class attributes. https://play.tailwindcss.com/ https://play.tailwindcss.com/
scrollaway 3y ago
Tailwind is not a performance hit, anyone who knows how it works knows that. Maybe stop throwing random accusations you can’t back up… it’s such low quality commenting. Edit for the downvoters who don’t know how it works: there’s zero js being run at runtime, it’s a pure css framework that generates as-minimal-as-possible css files. And it’s not class lookups that cause whatever issues parent comment is talking about.
afiori 3y ago
Tailwind is not Styled Components, there is no dynamic component to it. In that regard it is pretty similar to Sass. The main effect on performance likely are bigger html documents (which can be optimized) and simpler CSS selectors. In real world usage I would honestly guess that using simpler css selector (with far fewer propagating updates) is a net performance win. (It was one of the showstopper for the :has pseudoclass, for a long time nobody knew of a way to implement it efficiently)

progx 3y ago

That is the point: which kind of projects? You all fight, but nobody says what exactly they develop. A webpage and Tailwind is absolutely fun. An app with reusable complex components, Tailwind is a pain. Themes, dynamic tailwind is a pain, static, tailwind is ok. There are endless possibilities. The problem is, that some people think you can use Tailwind for everything and then they made simple things unnecessary complicated.

whstl 3y ago
I disagree 100% with that. I much prefer using Tailwind for complex apps with reusable components. Because then you don't have a lot of repetition, redundancy is as much as BEM. For static webpages (unless it is assembled by a static blog engine or something), I don't particularly enjoy it, because of the repetition. With components+Tailwind you have as much duplication as you'd have with pure BEM. All personal experience and opinion, of course.
- afiori 3y ago
  I like tailwind but I only ever used it in a JSX context, if I had to author plain html I would likely never choose it.
openplatypus 3y ago
Not my experience. We built a full rather complex and feature full application using Tailwind. How? Reusable components (we use Vue, but that’s just one option). I remember this being endorsed approached by Tailwind creator. No complaints.

LocalPCGuy 3y ago

Developers gain if they know CSS. Just like JavaScript - for either, if you understand the underlying base technology, it doesn't matter what framework you are presented with, you can learn the specifics of that framework fairly quickly, in my experience.