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> C. Security at potentially unsafe access points. > you get some [...] security at Starbucks This keeps coming up. What additional security do you get if eve

> C. Security at potentially unsafe access points. > you get some [...] security at Starbucks This keeps coming up. What additional security do you get if everything is HTTPS nowadays? If you connect to unencrypted endpoints somewhere, why is a potentially untrustworthy VPN better than a potentially untrustworthy Wifi access point?

mu53 3y ago
MAC addresses can be used to uniquely identify you, and then they can see what domains you are connected to. It really can tell them a lot especially factoring in background processes and capabilities of predictive ML right now. Its all about how far you spread your information. Giving it all to a VPN or spreading it across every wifi access point you need to use.
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  Don't most devices use randomized MAC addresses for Wifi nowadays? I don't have a Windows machine handy to verify, but I'm pretty sure even they do it. Not sure if it's the default, though. Ditto for MacOS. My Linux box (NetworkManager on Arch) does it, but I don't remember whether I had to manually turn it on. edit: according to [0], NetworkManager defaults to randomized for scanning, but not for connections. [0] https://blogs.gnome.org/thaller/2016/08/26/mac-address-spoofing-in-networkmanager-1-4-0/ https://blogs.gnome.org/thaller/2016/08/26/mac-address-spoof...
  - coldtea 3y ago
    >Don't most devices use randomized MAC addresses for Wifi nowadays? Does it help if you're one of 2 people in the Starbucks, and the other person is the one logging the IPs you visit?
    - vladvasiliu 3y ago
      Well, since they can't correlate the MAC with you, I don't see how it's different from the VPN provider logging and selling the IPs you visit.
      - coldtea 3y ago
        >Well, since they can't correlate the MAC with you They don't have to. They see you right there.
        vladvasiliu 3y ago
        But then your VPN provider can do exactly the same. It even works if there are 1000 people in the coffee shop.
        coldtea 3y ago
        Yes. But not the ones who are directly targeting you there, which is the point.
        vladvasiliu 3y ago
        Being targeted, as opposed to general surveillance of random people in a coffee shop, is moving the goalposts. If you are a target, how likely is it that whoever's after you only has control over the coffee shop wifi, but not over the possibly untrustworthy VPN provider?
        coldtea 3y ago
        >If you are a target, how likely is it that whoever's after you only has control over the coffee shop wifi, but not over the possibly untrustworthy VPN provider? Because I'm not talking about some state actor. Just the kind of people (some stalker, private dick, con artist or script kiddy looking for a random target and see you with your laptop, whatever) that might want to eavesdrop on your IP visits while you're on a coffee shop. There are several cases for which a VPN offers some protection, and the ones I mentioned are among them. If the agency/person you're a target of also controls the "VPN provider" you have bigger problems than choice of VPN.
roelschroeven 3y ago
Using a VPN prevents Starbucks from seeing which sites you connect to (by monitoring DNS traffic and IP addresses); I can see how people might find that useful.
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  If it's your own VPN, then sure. But if it's a random, untrustworthy VPN, it's just a question of who gets to sell your data. I also don't totally agree with the other poster's point. I think that it's maybe better for there to be multiple entities which each get a subset of the data (the different coffee shops I may visit), instead of a single one who gets everything (my VPN provider). Even if it's possible to somehow stitch everything back together again, at least this makes whoever's interested in my data work a little for it instead of having it on a silver platter. Personally, I don't want my data sold at all. It's not Starbucks specifically who I want to prevent from selling my data. If it's totallynotshadyvpn.com who does it, it's just as bad.
  - thathndude 3y ago
    "Personally, I don't want my data sold at all. It's not Starbucks specifically who I want to prevent from selling my data. If it's totallynotshadyvpn.com who does it, it's just as bad." That ship has sailed
Ms-J 3y ago
The additional security comes from people not being able to tamper with the routing table or DNS on the ISP side and redirecting your connections.

mu53 3y ago

MAC addresses can be used to uniquely identify you, and then they can see what domains you are connected to. It really can tell them a lot especially factoring in background processes and capabilities of predictive ML right now. Its all about how far you spread your information. Giving it all to a VPN or spreading it across every wifi access point you need to use.

vladvasiliu 3y ago
Don't most devices use randomized MAC addresses for Wifi nowadays? I don't have a Windows machine handy to verify, but I'm pretty sure even they do it. Not sure if it's the default, though. Ditto for MacOS. My Linux box (NetworkManager on Arch) does it, but I don't remember whether I had to manually turn it on. edit: according to [0], NetworkManager defaults to randomized for scanning, but not for connections. [0] https://blogs.gnome.org/thaller/2016/08/26/mac-address-spoofing-in-networkmanager-1-4-0/ https://blogs.gnome.org/thaller/2016/08/26/mac-address-spoof...
- coldtea 3y ago
  >Don't most devices use randomized MAC addresses for Wifi nowadays? Does it help if you're one of 2 people in the Starbucks, and the other person is the one logging the IPs you visit?
  - vladvasiliu 3y ago
    Well, since they can't correlate the MAC with you, I don't see how it's different from the VPN provider logging and selling the IPs you visit.
    - coldtea 3y ago
      >Well, since they can't correlate the MAC with you They don't have to. They see you right there.
      - vladvasiliu 3y ago
        But then your VPN provider can do exactly the same. It even works if there are 1000 people in the coffee shop.
        coldtea 3y ago
        Yes. But not the ones who are directly targeting you there, which is the point.
        vladvasiliu 3y ago
        Being targeted, as opposed to general surveillance of random people in a coffee shop, is moving the goalposts. If you are a target, how likely is it that whoever's after you only has control over the coffee shop wifi, but not over the possibly untrustworthy VPN provider?
        coldtea 3y ago
        >If you are a target, how likely is it that whoever's after you only has control over the coffee shop wifi, but not over the possibly untrustworthy VPN provider? Because I'm not talking about some state actor. Just the kind of people (some stalker, private dick, con artist or script kiddy looking for a random target and see you with your laptop, whatever) that might want to eavesdrop on your IP visits while you're on a coffee shop. There are several cases for which a VPN offers some protection, and the ones I mentioned are among them. If the agency/person you're a target of also controls the "VPN provider" you have bigger problems than choice of VPN.

roelschroeven 3y ago

Using a VPN prevents Starbucks from seeing which sites you connect to (by monitoring DNS traffic and IP addresses); I can see how people might find that useful.

vladvasiliu 3y ago
If it's your own VPN, then sure. But if it's a random, untrustworthy VPN, it's just a question of who gets to sell your data. I also don't totally agree with the other poster's point. I think that it's maybe better for there to be multiple entities which each get a subset of the data (the different coffee shops I may visit), instead of a single one who gets everything (my VPN provider). Even if it's possible to somehow stitch everything back together again, at least this makes whoever's interested in my data work a little for it instead of having it on a silver platter. Personally, I don't want my data sold at all. It's not Starbucks specifically who I want to prevent from selling my data. If it's totallynotshadyvpn.com who does it, it's just as bad.
- thathndude 3y ago
  "Personally, I don't want my data sold at all. It's not Starbucks specifically who I want to prevent from selling my data. If it's totallynotshadyvpn.com who does it, it's just as bad." That ship has sailed

Ms-J 3y ago

The additional security comes from people not being able to tamper with the routing table or DNS on the ISP side and redirecting your connections.