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I felt like not adding those examples would make people think I don't believe in climate change, so I wanted to make it clear I do think there's available optio

by vasco 3y ago

I felt like not adding those examples would make people think I don't believe in climate change, so I wanted to make it clear I do think there's available options for people that want to do it. I don't think it's great for you to be irritated by a suggestion of change through democratic means, that is how our society works. Maybe some of my other suggestions weren't the ones you'd choose, but I was merely making a list of things that can be done to affect change. Believe me you don't want to live in a system where any group can modify everyone else's life in the whole world in less than several decades. That system would be likely to be corrupted very easily. It takes a while to re-align our priorities as a global society. Unlike the voices that say "it isn't working", I think it is in fact working because we have more and more green parties in power and there's more and more awareness and change. If you step back from the doom voices you can see that voting does work. Of course the warming metrics will keep going up as we still have work to do and there will be a lagging effect, but voting isn't the only option, there's other things one can do as I mentioned in my comment and more even like some of the ones you mentioned. https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/how-green-party-success-reshaping-global-politics https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/how-green-party-success-res... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0261379423000240 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S026137942... https://www.eyes-on-europe.eu/greens-in-europe-an-impressive-gain-in-popularity/ https://www.eyes-on-europe.eu/greens-in-europe-an-impressive...

mandmandam 3y ago
> democratic means, that is how our society works You keep missing the point that the system has been captured and perverted. Without absorbing that fact, you'll never understand the world you live in. > I think it is in fact working https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
TaylorAlexander 3y ago
> I don't think it's great for you to be irritated by a suggestion of change through democratic means, that is how our society works There is a LOT to how our system works. It's not just a bunch of people going to their 9-5 for two years, skipping over to the ballot box, and then forgetting about politics for another 24 months. You did not explicitly say that is what we should do and I don't even believe you think that, but when someone says "the solution is to vote for change", to me as someone who believed in voting under Obama and then saw how the change we voted for gave way to the status quo, I learned how limited voting is in affecting real change. It is a component sure, but when the establishment on both sides is in agreement that we should either continue aggressively mining, selling, and burning fossil fuels, or we should continue mining and burning fossil fuels while agreeing to a very slow, scientifically disastrous slow wind down of their use, then obviously voting is not enough. And we have had 20 years to digest and reject the notion that individual changes are where we should focus. I mean sure, I am literally vegan, I believe in some sense of responsibility, but I believe more strongly that activism and agitation for broader social change, which requires MUCH MORE than voting, is necessarily required. That's why in an earlier comment I linked to the lawsuit in Montana. Young people in that state sued the state government for failing to protect the environment for the future as required by the state constitution. That's not voting or starting a new party! When someone says "the solution is to vote" it strikes me as naive. I have been voting for this for 20+ years. It is painfully clear to me that voting is not sufficient. I watched as Obama attended COP21 and failed to make any meaningful commitments. We must do way more than voting.
- vasco 3y ago
  Some thoughts but I see we're not going to reach much common ground: - elites aren't a monolithic group - regular people don't all agree with you, specially in their actions, which is the main problem - change comes about as fast as it comes about, you don't get to dictate what is "fast enough" through revolution or terrorism without facing opposition - change is in fact coming as I shared with sources showing more governments turning green with trends predicting even more - decrying a hijack of democracy is folly, and something anyone who's annoyed that their country doesn't do what they personally want can say at any point without any proof. That's what trump said when people didn't vote for him, that democracy was hijacked. If anything it was a great discussion, hope you have a nice day even if we don't agree on a bunch I respect your fervor and thoughts on the topic.

by vasco 3y ago

mandmandam 3y ago

> democratic means, that is how our society works You keep missing the point that the system has been captured and perverted. Without absorbing that fact, you'll never understand the world you live in. > I think it is in fact working https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

TaylorAlexander 3y ago

> I don't think it's great for you to be irritated by a suggestion of change through democratic means, that is how our society works There is a LOT to how our system works. It's not just a bunch of people going to their 9-5 for two years, skipping over to the ballot box, and then forgetting about politics for another 24 months. You did not explicitly say that is what we should do and I don't even believe you think that, but when someone says "the solution is to vote for change", to me as someone who believed in voting under Obama and then saw how the change we voted for gave way to the status quo, I learned how limited voting is in affecting real change. It is a component sure, but when the establishment on both sides is in agreement that we should either continue aggressively mining, selling, and burning fossil fuels, or we should continue mining and burning fossil fuels while agreeing to a very slow, scientifically disastrous slow wind down of their use, then obviously voting is not enough. And we have had 20 years to digest and reject the notion that individual changes are where we should focus. I mean sure, I am literally vegan, I believe in some sense of responsibility, but I believe more strongly that activism and agitation for broader social change, which requires MUCH MORE than voting, is necessarily required. That's why in an earlier comment I linked to the lawsuit in Montana. Young people in that state sued the state government for failing to protect the environment for the future as required by the state constitution. That's not voting or starting a new party! When someone says "the solution is to vote" it strikes me as naive. I have been voting for this for 20+ years. It is painfully clear to me that voting is not sufficient. I watched as Obama attended COP21 and failed to make any meaningful commitments. We must do way more than voting.

vasco 3y ago
Some thoughts but I see we're not going to reach much common ground: - elites aren't a monolithic group - regular people don't all agree with you, specially in their actions, which is the main problem - change comes about as fast as it comes about, you don't get to dictate what is "fast enough" through revolution or terrorism without facing opposition - change is in fact coming as I shared with sources showing more governments turning green with trends predicting even more - decrying a hijack of democracy is folly, and something anyone who's annoyed that their country doesn't do what they personally want can say at any point without any proof. That's what trump said when people didn't vote for him, that democracy was hijacked. If anything it was a great discussion, hope you have a nice day even if we don't agree on a bunch I respect your fervor and thoughts on the topic.