3 ms·

> Some of the things you mention are not like the others, and many are not terrorism. Just say what you mean please. What have I suggested which is terrorism?

vasco 3y ago
If you read the original comment you replied to, you will see my only position is against terrorism, that is suggested as the next only possible step after lobbying and litigation. You piled on that train to again propose the idea that every single suggestion I made was innefective and therefore "what can we do?". Since my comment was purely denouncing terrorism, I made the obvious connection that this is what you proposed to do. You then mentioned a bunch of suggestions similar to my own suggestions in my original post, except for blocking roads which I believe is a serious offense as you do not know what you are blocking people from getting to, though I'm not sure it amounts to terrorism. If someone says "purple is bad" and you comment a bunch of reasons why purple is not bad, am I that much at fault to think you believe purple is good? If you are for democratic and societal change through legal means then you're with me. I'm sorry if I annoyed you for hinting that you were proposing terrorism, but please re-read the original comment and see how that might've happened, I also got annoyed myself due to the fact that I didn't think people would find offense to an anti-terrorist stance, so perhaps I exaggerated.
- TaylorAlexander 3y ago
  What I found irritating is the suggestions to vote, form a new party, or change personal habits. It is surprising to hear someone in 2023 suggesting these things as these are all the things which have failed us for 20+ years. My point was not to advocate terrorism but to highlight the folly of your suggested alternatives. Your intention may have been purely to argue against terrorism but in the process you made other arguments I felt compelled to critique. I was not arguing in favor of terrorism.
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    " It is surprising to hear someone in 2023 suggesting these things as these are all the things which have failed us for 20+ years" But maybe it is not all because of an evil elite, but also the very common people who don't believe or care about climate change, because it would mean bad consciousness or reduced comfort? And the people who say they care, but still fly around the world for a vacation? A scientific consensus alone is not enough, it needs a general human consensus that something needs to happen. And slowly slowly it is forming in some ways. In other ways things are going backward (russia for example is thinking out loud that climate change is just caused by earths natural radiactivity). But I also fail to see how terrorism can help create such a consensus.
    - TaylorAlexander 3y ago
      I am not arguing in favor of terrorism! I am arguing against the idea that voting is enough. Put simply, in between voting and terrorism is activism and legal action (that is, using the legal system and suing organizations and governments as was done recently in Montana). > But maybe it is not all because of an evil elite Our system is elite-driven, and popular attitudes are strongly driven by elite manipulation through the media. > because it would mean bad consciousness or reduced comfort It would not mean this, but we have been led to believe it would mean this by an elite that doesn't want to make these changes due to reduced profits.
      - hutzlibu 3y ago
        "It would not mean this, but we have been led to believe it would mean this by an elite that doesn't want to make these changes due to reduced profits." Flying is bad, right? And not flying reduces comfort. What does this has to do anything with evil elites?
  - vasco 3y ago
    I felt like not adding those examples would make people think I don't believe in climate change, so I wanted to make it clear I do think there's available options for people that want to do it. I don't think it's great for you to be irritated by a suggestion of change through democratic means, that is how our society works. Maybe some of my other suggestions weren't the ones you'd choose, but I was merely making a list of things that can be done to affect change. Believe me you don't want to live in a system where any group can modify everyone else's life in the whole world in less than several decades. That system would be likely to be corrupted very easily. It takes a while to re-align our priorities as a global society. Unlike the voices that say "it isn't working", I think it is in fact working because we have more and more green parties in power and there's more and more awareness and change. If you step back from the doom voices you can see that voting does work. Of course the warming metrics will keep going up as we still have work to do and there will be a lagging effect, but voting isn't the only option, there's other things one can do as I mentioned in my comment and more even like some of the ones you mentioned. https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/how-green-party-success-reshaping-global-politics https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/how-green-party-success-res... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0261379423000240 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S026137942... https://www.eyes-on-europe.eu/greens-in-europe-an-impressive-gain-in-popularity/ https://www.eyes-on-europe.eu/greens-in-europe-an-impressive...

vasco 3y ago

If you read the original comment you replied to, you will see my only position is against terrorism, that is suggested as the next only possible step after lobbying and litigation. You piled on that train to again propose the idea that every single suggestion I made was innefective and therefore "what can we do?". Since my comment was purely denouncing terrorism, I made the obvious connection that this is what you proposed to do. You then mentioned a bunch of suggestions similar to my own suggestions in my original post, except for blocking roads which I believe is a serious offense as you do not know what you are blocking people from getting to, though I'm not sure it amounts to terrorism. If someone says "purple is bad" and you comment a bunch of reasons why purple is not bad, am I that much at fault to think you believe purple is good? If you are for democratic and societal change through legal means then you're with me. I'm sorry if I annoyed you for hinting that you were proposing terrorism, but please re-read the original comment and see how that might've happened, I also got annoyed myself due to the fact that I didn't think people would find offense to an anti-terrorist stance, so perhaps I exaggerated.

TaylorAlexander 3y ago
What I found irritating is the suggestions to vote, form a new party, or change personal habits. It is surprising to hear someone in 2023 suggesting these things as these are all the things which have failed us for 20+ years. My point was not to advocate terrorism but to highlight the folly of your suggested alternatives. Your intention may have been purely to argue against terrorism but in the process you made other arguments I felt compelled to critique. I was not arguing in favor of terrorism.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  " It is surprising to hear someone in 2023 suggesting these things as these are all the things which have failed us for 20+ years" But maybe it is not all because of an evil elite, but also the very common people who don't believe or care about climate change, because it would mean bad consciousness or reduced comfort? And the people who say they care, but still fly around the world for a vacation? A scientific consensus alone is not enough, it needs a general human consensus that something needs to happen. And slowly slowly it is forming in some ways. In other ways things are going backward (russia for example is thinking out loud that climate change is just caused by earths natural radiactivity). But I also fail to see how terrorism can help create such a consensus.
  - TaylorAlexander 3y ago
    I am not arguing in favor of terrorism! I am arguing against the idea that voting is enough. Put simply, in between voting and terrorism is activism and legal action (that is, using the legal system and suing organizations and governments as was done recently in Montana). > But maybe it is not all because of an evil elite Our system is elite-driven, and popular attitudes are strongly driven by elite manipulation through the media. > because it would mean bad consciousness or reduced comfort It would not mean this, but we have been led to believe it would mean this by an elite that doesn't want to make these changes due to reduced profits.
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      "It would not mean this, but we have been led to believe it would mean this by an elite that doesn't want to make these changes due to reduced profits." Flying is bad, right? And not flying reduces comfort. What does this has to do anything with evil elites?
- vasco 3y ago
  I felt like not adding those examples would make people think I don't believe in climate change, so I wanted to make it clear I do think there's available options for people that want to do it. I don't think it's great for you to be irritated by a suggestion of change through democratic means, that is how our society works. Maybe some of my other suggestions weren't the ones you'd choose, but I was merely making a list of things that can be done to affect change. Believe me you don't want to live in a system where any group can modify everyone else's life in the whole world in less than several decades. That system would be likely to be corrupted very easily. It takes a while to re-align our priorities as a global society. Unlike the voices that say "it isn't working", I think it is in fact working because we have more and more green parties in power and there's more and more awareness and change. If you step back from the doom voices you can see that voting does work. Of course the warming metrics will keep going up as we still have work to do and there will be a lagging effect, but voting isn't the only option, there's other things one can do as I mentioned in my comment and more even like some of the ones you mentioned. https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/how-green-party-success-reshaping-global-politics https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/how-green-party-success-res... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0261379423000240 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S026137942... https://www.eyes-on-europe.eu/greens-in-europe-an-impressive-gain-in-popularity/ https://www.eyes-on-europe.eu/greens-in-europe-an-impressive...