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In general maybe, but in the specific context above, I think calling that loop declarative is accurate, and laughing at that classification is a poor response r

In general maybe, but in the specific context above, I think calling that loop declarative is accurate, and laughing at that classification is a poor response rooted in a deep misunderstanding.

verdverm 3y ago
I was just wondering what stops me from reading and writing to a cloud bucket like an infinite tape? https://www.pulumi.com/registry/packages/gcp/api-docs/storage/getbucketobjectcontent/ https://www.pulumi.com/registry/packages/gcp/api-docs/storag...
verdverm 3y ago
import pulumi from pulumi_gcp import storage bucket = "hof-io--develop-internal" name = "pulumi/hack/condition.txt" cond = False msg = "running" cnt = 0 while not cond: cnt += 1 key = storage.get_bucket_object_content(name=name, bucket=bucket) print(cnt, key.content) if key.content == "exit": msg = "hallo!" break pulumi.export('msg', msg) pulumi.export('cnt', cnt) --- 769 exit 770 exit 771 exit 772 exit 773 exit 774 exit 775 exit Outputs: cnt: 775 msg: "hallo!" Resources: + 1 to create info: There are no resources in your stack (other than the stack resource). Do you want to perform this update? [Use arrows to move, type to filter] yes > no details ---- Of note, all but the last exit had a newline, until I `echo -n` the file I copied up --- ooo... 348 what?!?! 349 what?!?! 350 what?!?! 351 what?!?! 352 what?!?! 353 what?!?! 354 what?!?! 355 what?!?! 356 what?!?! 357 what?!?! 358 what?!?! 359 exit Outputs: cnt: 359 msg: "hallo!" Resources: + 1 created Duration: 27s --- I uploaded a different file while waiting to be asked to continue, and then proceeded to get different outputs Note, while I can get the contents of a bucket in TF, I cannot build a loop around it as I have above https://registry.terraform.io/providers/hashicorp/aws/latest/docs/data-sources/s3_object https://registry.terraform.io/providers/hashicorp/aws/latest... TF might be susceptible to the same file contents manipulation between plan & apply as well, but then again, you can save a plan to a file and then run it later, so maybe not? Another experiment seems to be in order
- AaronFriel 3y ago
  I think this is an advantage of Pulumi, here are two use cases: 1. Creating a resource where created is not the same as ready. This is extraordinarily common with compute resources (a virtual machine, a container, an HTTP server, a process) where attempting to create follow-up resources can result in costly retry-back-off loops. Even when creating Kubernetes resources, Pulumi will stand up an internet-connected deployment more quickly than many other tools because you can ensure the image is published before a pod references it, the pod is up before a service references it, and so on. (The Kubernetes provider bakes some of these awaits in by default.) 2. Resources graphs that are dynamic, reflecting external data sources at the moment of creation. Whether you want to write a Kubernetes operator, synchronize an LDAP directory to a SaaS product, or one of my favorite examples. When I set up demos, I often configure the authorized public IPs dynamically: import * as publicIp from 'public-ip'; new someProvider.Kubernetes.Cluster('cluster', { apiServerAccessProfile: { authorizedIPRanges: [await publicIp.v4()], enablePrivateCluster: false, }, }
  - verdverm 3y ago
    Of course you think it is an advantage, you work for Pulumi I'm telling you this is not how a potential user sees the same situation, that it is a disadvantage and was one of the reasons we are not making the switch. This example above is exactly the kind of code we don't want in ops, it depends on the user environment and physical location at the time they run the command, bad practice. Thanks for an extra talking point though
- jjnoakes 3y ago
  The claim above isn't "imperative is impossible".
  - verdverm 3y ago
    The claim above is that Pulumi uses an imperative interface and that it is quite easy to slip past the declarative guardrails, so in most cases Pulumi is imperative, not declarative. The fact that Pulumi makes this separation opaque can be discussed, as can the clear separation be shown an alternative with benefits The claim I keep seeing from Pulumi folks is that Pulumi is declarative, which is is not, as shown in multiple posts by many people. Please stop calling it such, it demonstrates dishonesty towards users

In general maybe, but in the specific context above, I think calling that loop declarative is accurate, and laughing at that classification is a poor response rooted in a deep misunderstanding.

verdverm 3y ago

I was just wondering what stops me from reading and writing to a cloud bucket like an infinite tape? https://www.pulumi.com/registry/packages/gcp/api-docs/storage/getbucketobjectcontent/ https://www.pulumi.com/registry/packages/gcp/api-docs/storag...

verdverm 3y ago

import pulumi from pulumi_gcp import storage bucket = "hof-io--develop-internal" name = "pulumi/hack/condition.txt" cond = False msg = "running" cnt = 0 while not cond: cnt += 1 key = storage.get_bucket_object_content(name=name, bucket=bucket) print(cnt, key.content) if key.content == "exit": msg = "hallo!" break pulumi.export('msg', msg) pulumi.export('cnt', cnt) --- 769 exit 770 exit 771 exit 772 exit 773 exit 774 exit 775 exit Outputs: cnt: 775 msg: "hallo!" Resources: + 1 to create info: There are no resources in your stack (other than the stack resource). Do you want to perform this update? [Use arrows to move, type to filter] yes > no details ---- Of note, all but the last exit had a newline, until I `echo -n` the file I copied up --- ooo... 348 what?!?! 349 what?!?! 350 what?!?! 351 what?!?! 352 what?!?! 353 what?!?! 354 what?!?! 355 what?!?! 356 what?!?! 357 what?!?! 358 what?!?! 359 exit Outputs: cnt: 359 msg: "hallo!" Resources: + 1 created Duration: 27s --- I uploaded a different file while waiting to be asked to continue, and then proceeded to get different outputs Note, while I can get the contents of a bucket in TF, I cannot build a loop around it as I have above https://registry.terraform.io/providers/hashicorp/aws/latest/docs/data-sources/s3_object https://registry.terraform.io/providers/hashicorp/aws/latest... TF might be susceptible to the same file contents manipulation between plan & apply as well, but then again, you can save a plan to a file and then run it later, so maybe not? Another experiment seems to be in order

AaronFriel 3y ago
I think this is an advantage of Pulumi, here are two use cases: 1. Creating a resource where created is not the same as ready. This is extraordinarily common with compute resources (a virtual machine, a container, an HTTP server, a process) where attempting to create follow-up resources can result in costly retry-back-off loops. Even when creating Kubernetes resources, Pulumi will stand up an internet-connected deployment more quickly than many other tools because you can ensure the image is published before a pod references it, the pod is up before a service references it, and so on. (The Kubernetes provider bakes some of these awaits in by default.) 2. Resources graphs that are dynamic, reflecting external data sources at the moment of creation. Whether you want to write a Kubernetes operator, synchronize an LDAP directory to a SaaS product, or one of my favorite examples. When I set up demos, I often configure the authorized public IPs dynamically: import * as publicIp from 'public-ip'; new someProvider.Kubernetes.Cluster('cluster', { apiServerAccessProfile: { authorizedIPRanges: [await publicIp.v4()], enablePrivateCluster: false, }, }
- verdverm 3y ago
  Of course you think it is an advantage, you work for Pulumi I'm telling you this is not how a potential user sees the same situation, that it is a disadvantage and was one of the reasons we are not making the switch. This example above is exactly the kind of code we don't want in ops, it depends on the user environment and physical location at the time they run the command, bad practice. Thanks for an extra talking point though
jjnoakes 3y ago
The claim above isn't "imperative is impossible".
- verdverm 3y ago
  The claim above is that Pulumi uses an imperative interface and that it is quite easy to slip past the declarative guardrails, so in most cases Pulumi is imperative, not declarative. The fact that Pulumi makes this separation opaque can be discussed, as can the clear separation be shown an alternative with benefits The claim I keep seeing from Pulumi folks is that Pulumi is declarative, which is is not, as shown in multiple posts by many people. Please stop calling it such, it demonstrates dishonesty towards users