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Europe is a wonderful place. It was very weird going to a restaurant for the first time and paying the price listed on the menu, and not 30% more (sales tax +

Europe is a wonderful place. It was very weird going to a restaurant for the first time and paying the price listed on the menu, and not 30% more (sales tax + tip)

lamontcg 3y ago
I literally can't even imagine that utopia, because I still reflexively included a carve out for sales tax.
lostlogin 3y ago
We have that system down here in New Zealand. However we have only two supermarket chains and a near monopoly for many consumer good and building supplies. You can buy New Zealand produce around the world for less than it costs us in New Zealand. So going for a meal costs what it says on the menu and no more, but that cost is steep.
- jackson1442 3y ago
  I don’t think inclusive pricing and the cost of goods are necessarily linked, there are many other reasons goods and services could be more expensive in NZ.
  - lostlogin 3y ago
    Oh there are, rules around employees, consumer guarantees act, acc levies and various other things. But it seems unlikely that have just 2 food suppliers isn’t a root cause of food price issues.
    - lmpdev 3y ago
      Australian here Isn't it mostly just economies of scale plus transport costs? Or are our industrial relations laws really not as good?
      - lozenge 3y ago
        It's more about farming subsidies and tax levels. Some governments choose to make food cheap by encouraging overproduction.
        Symbiote 3y ago
        Overproduction (by subsidy) is also very useful to cope with poor harvests, supply shortages due to wars etc. Discussion on the European system for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Agricultural_Policy#Oversupply_and_its_redistribution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Agricultural_Policy#Ove...
- renonce 3y ago
  It looks like New Zealand charges a 15% VAT which is applied when New Zealand residents buy anything in Europe but not when New Zealand goods are exported, maybe that could be where the cost is?
  - lostlogin 3y ago
    There is VAT when you buy in the UK too though. New Zealanders pay way more. It's seems to be 50-100% what those in the UK pay for groceries, though this varies depending on how you measure or what you read. https://simplenewzealand.com/cost-of-living-in-new-zealand-vs-uk/#:~:text=Food%20is%20the%20second%20largest,89)%20on%20food%20per%20week https://simplenewzealand.com/cost-of-living-in-new-zealand-v.... https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2021/09/shopper-s-receipt-shows-how-much-less-groceries-cost-in-the-uk-compared-to-nz.html https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2021/09/shopper-s-recei... https://thespinoff.co.nz/money/12-08-2021/how-do-nz-grocery-prices-compare-with-overseas-we-have-the-receipts https://thespinoff.co.nz/money/12-08-2021/how-do-nz-grocery-...
midoridensha 3y ago
In Europe, it's still common to give a small tip. In Germany, it's called "trinkgeld" (literally "drink gold"). Usually, it's just rounding up to the nearest Euro or 5 Euros. Japan is better: there's absolutely no tipping, at all. The price you see advertised is the price you pay, and they won't even take your tip. (There are a few exceptions: some American-style cafes have been putting tipping jars at the register; very annoying.) The only caveat is the tax: that's not always counted in the price, so many restaurants show two prices, the pre-tax price and the post-tax price just below it (usually in a smaller font). The other thing that's MUCH better about Japan vs. Europe is that water is free. In Europe, if you want any drink with your meal at all, you have to ask for it, and if you ask for water, they'll bring a fancy glass bottle of very expensive bottled water. If you ask for tap water they'll give you dirty looks. In Japan, it's more like America: water (tap water, but it's really good) is free, and usually given without asking. Some places put a giant carafe of iced water on your table, which is great during this ridiculously hot summer. The other thing that's much better about Japan (this isn't really about restaurants, though it does apply to the food court restaurants in malls) is that public bathrooms are free. In Europe, they usually expect you to leave a tip or some kind of fee for the cleaning people. Japan is again more like America: public bathrooms are just that: open to the public, for free. The big differences are that 1) there's a washlet on most toilets, and 2) they're actually clean.
- bmicraft 3y ago
  > literally "drink gold" "Geld" is not gold, its money. "Gold" is gold.
- LelouBil 3y ago
  In France, lots of restaurant give you a carafe, and they are obligated by law to give you free water if you ask (and you ordered something).
  - 6510 3y ago
    In the Netherlands, if a stranger shows up at your door and asks for water you are obligated to give it to them.
romafirst3 3y ago
incidentally the price of broadband is also much cheaper, you can get 1Gig in Dublin for 50 euros per month (about $54). For that price in LA I can get 50Mbps. https://switcher.ie/broadband/ireland/dublin/?eircode=&tv_included=no&max_broadband_download_speed%5B%5D=Fibre+%281Gb%2B%29#snippet-results-section https://switcher.ie/broadband/ireland/dublin/?eircode=&tv_in...
- Thedarkb 3y ago
  That's not really consistent across Ireland though, let alone Europe. I was paying €50 a month for two megabit DSL in Kilkenny five years ago as that was all my ISP's backhaul was good for.
  - romafirst3 3y ago
    Sure and it's not true of comparison across the USA either, lots of places you just straight up cannot get a phone line let alone broadband. It is comparable across two metro areas though, I think that comparison is fair.
    - IIsi50MHz 3y ago
      When I lived in Cincinnati, people had to choose DSL or cable internet, from two (which cable provider depended on part of town). Cable was the only fast option, unless you lived very-very close to a telco "switching office". Cost per month was more than double same-speed cost in Columbus. Columbus had multiple providers in each area. $35/month. In Cincinnati, the Cr^H^HTime-Warner Cable rate rose every month of every year for as long as you remained a customer. Complaining would get you a story about it being a "billing mistake" and "a credit on your next bill". The credit usually didn't arrive unless you complained again. And even then they might randomly switch tactics to "We're so sorry. We'll give you [1 | 3] months of [HBO | Showtime | Starz | all premium channels.". I'm still wary of comparing charges across metros. /-:
      - romafirst3 3y ago
        I’m not sure I get your point. I was trying to make the point they telcos in the USA are super shit and expensive and they don’t even provide value for money after all that. It’s one thing to have a monopoly and gouge your customers if the product you are providing is unimpeachable but they are far from that.
vladvasiliu 3y ago
Sure. But have you tried paying for electricity here? In France, if you look at your EDF (national electricity company) invoice, you'll see that you pay VAT (a tax) on top of other taxes. They also levy VAT on the "Greffier"'s fees. That's a clerk at the "commerce tribunal", which is basically a part of the state administration with which you interact whenever you need any administrative changes for a company. Say, you need to declare a change of address.
- unilynx 3y ago
  Both of these things are rates set by the government. If they weren't charging VAT on the fees, they would just recalculate the base fees accordingly
  - vladvasiliu 3y ago
    Sure, but in the case of electricity, it's no different from the other poster's “just because we can fee” and “fee for processing your fee”. All these are added on top of the advertised "contract fee" and actual electricity price. They don't advertise prices such that you can take the advertised fixed fee, add your consumption times the advertised kWh price, and have your final amount due. No, they add a "tax on energy consumption", a "contribution to the public electricity service", and a "contribution to electricity delivery". And, on all of these, they levy the VAT. > they would just recalculate the base fees accordingly And I think this willingly done, to give the impression that taxes are lower than they really are. Which makes the whole thing seem dishonest.

Europe is a wonderful place. It was very weird going to a restaurant for the first time and paying the price listed on the menu, and not 30% more (sales tax + tip)

lamontcg 3y ago

I literally can't even imagine that utopia, because I still reflexively included a carve out for sales tax.

lostlogin 3y ago

We have that system down here in New Zealand. However we have only two supermarket chains and a near monopoly for many consumer good and building supplies. You can buy New Zealand produce around the world for less than it costs us in New Zealand. So going for a meal costs what it says on the menu and no more, but that cost is steep.

jackson1442 3y ago
I don’t think inclusive pricing and the cost of goods are necessarily linked, there are many other reasons goods and services could be more expensive in NZ.
- lostlogin 3y ago
  Oh there are, rules around employees, consumer guarantees act, acc levies and various other things. But it seems unlikely that have just 2 food suppliers isn’t a root cause of food price issues.
  - lmpdev 3y ago
    Australian here Isn't it mostly just economies of scale plus transport costs? Or are our industrial relations laws really not as good?
    - lozenge 3y ago
      It's more about farming subsidies and tax levels. Some governments choose to make food cheap by encouraging overproduction.
      - Symbiote 3y ago
        Overproduction (by subsidy) is also very useful to cope with poor harvests, supply shortages due to wars etc. Discussion on the European system for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Agricultural_Policy#Oversupply_and_its_redistribution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Agricultural_Policy#Ove...
renonce 3y ago
It looks like New Zealand charges a 15% VAT which is applied when New Zealand residents buy anything in Europe but not when New Zealand goods are exported, maybe that could be where the cost is?
- lostlogin 3y ago
  There is VAT when you buy in the UK too though. New Zealanders pay way more. It's seems to be 50-100% what those in the UK pay for groceries, though this varies depending on how you measure or what you read. https://simplenewzealand.com/cost-of-living-in-new-zealand-vs-uk/#:~:text=Food%20is%20the%20second%20largest,89)%20on%20food%20per%20week https://simplenewzealand.com/cost-of-living-in-new-zealand-v.... https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2021/09/shopper-s-receipt-shows-how-much-less-groceries-cost-in-the-uk-compared-to-nz.html https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2021/09/shopper-s-recei... https://thespinoff.co.nz/money/12-08-2021/how-do-nz-grocery-prices-compare-with-overseas-we-have-the-receipts https://thespinoff.co.nz/money/12-08-2021/how-do-nz-grocery-...

midoridensha 3y ago

In Europe, it's still common to give a small tip. In Germany, it's called "trinkgeld" (literally "drink gold"). Usually, it's just rounding up to the nearest Euro or 5 Euros. Japan is better: there's absolutely no tipping, at all. The price you see advertised is the price you pay, and they won't even take your tip. (There are a few exceptions: some American-style cafes have been putting tipping jars at the register; very annoying.) The only caveat is the tax: that's not always counted in the price, so many restaurants show two prices, the pre-tax price and the post-tax price just below it (usually in a smaller font). The other thing that's MUCH better about Japan vs. Europe is that water is free. In Europe, if you want any drink with your meal at all, you have to ask for it, and if you ask for water, they'll bring a fancy glass bottle of very expensive bottled water. If you ask for tap water they'll give you dirty looks. In Japan, it's more like America: water (tap water, but it's really good) is free, and usually given without asking. Some places put a giant carafe of iced water on your table, which is great during this ridiculously hot summer. The other thing that's much better about Japan (this isn't really about restaurants, though it does apply to the food court restaurants in malls) is that public bathrooms are free. In Europe, they usually expect you to leave a tip or some kind of fee for the cleaning people. Japan is again more like America: public bathrooms are just that: open to the public, for free. The big differences are that 1) there's a washlet on most toilets, and 2) they're actually clean.

bmicraft 3y ago
> literally "drink gold" "Geld" is not gold, its money. "Gold" is gold.
LelouBil 3y ago
In France, lots of restaurant give you a carafe, and they are obligated by law to give you free water if you ask (and you ordered something).
- 6510 3y ago
  In the Netherlands, if a stranger shows up at your door and asks for water you are obligated to give it to them.

romafirst3 3y ago

incidentally the price of broadband is also much cheaper, you can get 1Gig in Dublin for 50 euros per month (about $54). For that price in LA I can get 50Mbps. https://switcher.ie/broadband/ireland/dublin/?eircode=&tv_included=no&max_broadband_download_speed%5B%5D=Fibre+%281Gb%2B%29#snippet-results-section https://switcher.ie/broadband/ireland/dublin/?eircode=&tv_in...

Thedarkb 3y ago
That's not really consistent across Ireland though, let alone Europe. I was paying €50 a month for two megabit DSL in Kilkenny five years ago as that was all my ISP's backhaul was good for.
- romafirst3 3y ago
  Sure and it's not true of comparison across the USA either, lots of places you just straight up cannot get a phone line let alone broadband. It is comparable across two metro areas though, I think that comparison is fair.
  - IIsi50MHz 3y ago
    When I lived in Cincinnati, people had to choose DSL or cable internet, from two (which cable provider depended on part of town). Cable was the only fast option, unless you lived very-very close to a telco "switching office". Cost per month was more than double same-speed cost in Columbus. Columbus had multiple providers in each area. $35/month. In Cincinnati, the Cr^H^HTime-Warner Cable rate rose every month of every year for as long as you remained a customer. Complaining would get you a story about it being a "billing mistake" and "a credit on your next bill". The credit usually didn't arrive unless you complained again. And even then they might randomly switch tactics to "We're so sorry. We'll give you [1 | 3] months of [HBO | Showtime | Starz | all premium channels.". I'm still wary of comparing charges across metros. /-:
    - romafirst3 3y ago
      I’m not sure I get your point. I was trying to make the point they telcos in the USA are super shit and expensive and they don’t even provide value for money after all that. It’s one thing to have a monopoly and gouge your customers if the product you are providing is unimpeachable but they are far from that.

vladvasiliu 3y ago

Sure. But have you tried paying for electricity here? In France, if you look at your EDF (national electricity company) invoice, you'll see that you pay VAT (a tax) on top of other taxes. They also levy VAT on the "Greffier"'s fees. That's a clerk at the "commerce tribunal", which is basically a part of the state administration with which you interact whenever you need any administrative changes for a company. Say, you need to declare a change of address.

unilynx 3y ago
Both of these things are rates set by the government. If they weren't charging VAT on the fees, they would just recalculate the base fees accordingly
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  Sure, but in the case of electricity, it's no different from the other poster's “just because we can fee” and “fee for processing your fee”. All these are added on top of the advertised "contract fee" and actual electricity price. They don't advertise prices such that you can take the advertised fixed fee, add your consumption times the advertised kWh price, and have your final amount due. No, they add a "tax on energy consumption", a "contribution to the public electricity service", and a "contribution to electricity delivery". And, on all of these, they levy the VAT. > they would just recalculate the base fees accordingly And I think this willingly done, to give the impression that taxes are lower than they really are. Which makes the whole thing seem dishonest.