4 ms·

So it’s a compulsory contribution to state revenue levied by the government and added to the cost of the service? Because that’s what a tax is… > a compulsory

So it’s a compulsory contribution to state revenue levied by the government and added to the cost of the service? Because that’s what a tax is… > a compulsory contribution to state revenue, levied by the government on workers' income and business profits, or added to the cost of some goods, services, and transactions.

lmm 3y ago
Sounds like it's not compulsory though? The ISP is perfectly welcome to lay their lines via private lands (having negotiated permission with each landowner, naturally) if they'd prefer.
- AmericanChopper 3y ago
  Well it’s not compulsory to pay your vehicle registration tax either, if you only want to drive your vehicle on private land.
  - lmm 3y ago
    I wouldn't consider that a "tax" either if that's all it's for. Do you consider national park entrance passes to be a tax?
    - AmericanChopper 3y ago
      Contrived arguments about whether something is a tax or a user fee has been a feature of politically motivated spin since basically forever. I would say any essential service (like access to internet, roads, healthcare, etc…) that requires for money to be paid to the government is taxes. There is no way to get access to the internet without paying these taxes to the government, and your suggestion to implement a private-land-only infrastructure is silly. There is no contiguous area of private land between my house and an ISP POP that doesn’t cross over publicly owned land. That’s almost certainly true for you too, and anybody else who’s reading this.
      - lmm 3y ago
        > I would say any essential service (like access to internet, roads, healthcare, etc…) that requires for money to be paid to the government is taxes. There is no way to get access to the internet without paying these taxes to the government, and your suggestion to implement a private-land-only infrastructure is silly. There is no contiguous area of private land between my house and an ISP POP that doesn’t cross over publicly owned land. If it's both an essential service and effectively impossible to implement without making use of public land (and I don't disagree), then there's no reasonable basis for it to be a private industry operation at all. These ISPs can't have it both ways.
  - chriscappuccio 3y ago
    Most taxes and fees from an ISP or telco have absolutely nothing to do with passing over public property. Many telco fees are in portion or in full a profit for the provider!
- mlyle 3y ago
  > Sounds like it's not compulsory though? The ISP is perfectly welcome to lay their lines via private lands (having negotiated permission with each landowner, naturally) if they'd prefer. Streets cut cities into small islands of private lands. Therefore, you cannot reach anyone without crossing the public right of way.
  - lmm 3y ago
    Perhaps mere crossing should be treated as de minimis. But when you're closing and digging up the public street for days at a time, or perhaps even running your lines through publicly-maintained conduits and accessing them through publicly-maintained manholes, you're taking a lot more from the commons than that.
gamblor956 3y ago
It's not compulsory. It's a fee for access to public rights of way. If the ISP doesn't want to pay the fee, they are free to figure out a way to provide connectivity without access to the public right of way. And on that note...my ISP (Starry) does exactly that. They don't use the public rights of way so they don't have to charge many of the franchise fees that Comcast et al do.

lmm 3y ago

Sounds like it's not compulsory though? The ISP is perfectly welcome to lay their lines via private lands (having negotiated permission with each landowner, naturally) if they'd prefer.

AmericanChopper 3y ago
Well it’s not compulsory to pay your vehicle registration tax either, if you only want to drive your vehicle on private land.
- lmm 3y ago
  I wouldn't consider that a "tax" either if that's all it's for. Do you consider national park entrance passes to be a tax?
  - AmericanChopper 3y ago
    Contrived arguments about whether something is a tax or a user fee has been a feature of politically motivated spin since basically forever. I would say any essential service (like access to internet, roads, healthcare, etc…) that requires for money to be paid to the government is taxes. There is no way to get access to the internet without paying these taxes to the government, and your suggestion to implement a private-land-only infrastructure is silly. There is no contiguous area of private land between my house and an ISP POP that doesn’t cross over publicly owned land. That’s almost certainly true for you too, and anybody else who’s reading this.
    - lmm 3y ago
      > I would say any essential service (like access to internet, roads, healthcare, etc…) that requires for money to be paid to the government is taxes. There is no way to get access to the internet without paying these taxes to the government, and your suggestion to implement a private-land-only infrastructure is silly. There is no contiguous area of private land between my house and an ISP POP that doesn’t cross over publicly owned land. If it's both an essential service and effectively impossible to implement without making use of public land (and I don't disagree), then there's no reasonable basis for it to be a private industry operation at all. These ISPs can't have it both ways.
- chriscappuccio 3y ago
  Most taxes and fees from an ISP or telco have absolutely nothing to do with passing over public property. Many telco fees are in portion or in full a profit for the provider!
mlyle 3y ago
> Sounds like it's not compulsory though? The ISP is perfectly welcome to lay their lines via private lands (having negotiated permission with each landowner, naturally) if they'd prefer. Streets cut cities into small islands of private lands. Therefore, you cannot reach anyone without crossing the public right of way.
- lmm 3y ago
  Perhaps mere crossing should be treated as de minimis. But when you're closing and digging up the public street for days at a time, or perhaps even running your lines through publicly-maintained conduits and accessing them through publicly-maintained manholes, you're taking a lot more from the commons than that.

gamblor956 3y ago

It's not compulsory. It's a fee for access to public rights of way. If the ISP doesn't want to pay the fee, they are free to figure out a way to provide connectivity without access to the public right of way. And on that note...my ISP (Starry) does exactly that. They don't use the public rights of way so they don't have to charge many of the franchise fees that Comcast et al do.