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> That's just another whataboutism play I'm sorry but that's nonsense. "Whataboutism" about what? Local oligarchs and extreme corruption are huge issues in Uk

by qwytw 3y ago

> That's just another whataboutism play I'm sorry but that's nonsense. "Whataboutism" about what? Local oligarchs and extreme corruption are huge issues in Ukraine and have been holding it back more than Russia before the war. And yeah, corruption exists everywhere but there not that many places (in the developed world) where it's even close to being as bad. > Where did we switch from 'average' to 'median'? That doesen't change the point. > In part because of ongoing Russian efforts to destabilize the country as well as an invasion. You can't just wave that away. I'm not. Ukraine has been in a terribly state pre 2014 as well. Russia shot themselves in the foot (or their economy anyway) back in 2014 but by then the gap between it and Ukraine was already huge. > Romania and Bulgaria have done I am doubtful, especially about the larger scale. Economically Ukraine is now where Romania and Bulgaria were back in 2005 or so. Yes Russia is obviously the main problem currently but it's not the only reason Ukraine is (and was back in 2014) 10-20 years behind pretty much all other ex-soviet/socialist countries in Europe besides Moldova.

jacquesm 3y ago
The main reasons Ukraine is as far behind as it is is because (1) it isn't proximate to a large and wealthy country that can invest there in a similar manner to how Germany helped to lift Poland out of the mess it was in in 1989, and (2) that it never got integrated into the EU which would have put strict limits on a whole raft of things. Not that that is a guarantee but it would at least have provided a carrot and a stick instead of just a stick. I've spent a lot of time (many years) in former Sovbloc countries and I've seen up close how tremendously corrupt those countries were before the wall fell and how much heavy lifting had to be done to begin to undo the many years of erosion of the will and the hope of the people there to make a serious change. Poland and the Czech republic are the success stories, everybody else, including Hungary is still suffering tremendously in the present and I'm not all that sure about Poland in the longer term either. The scars run deep and they are plentiful. Ukraine has one better than expected given their history and proximity to Russia, as well as Russia's continuous attempts to interfere in their affairs in an attempt to turn Ukraine into another Belarus. Russia had another option: to play nice and to decrease the wealth gap but the fat cats wouldn't have it, they only know how to rape and plunder, wealth creation isn't even in their vocabulary. You can't solve the corruption issues before you have a functioning democracy and you can't have a functioning democracy whilst your 10x larger neighbor is doing its level best to destroy your political systems.

by qwytw 3y ago

jacquesm 3y ago

The main reasons Ukraine is as far behind as it is is because (1) it isn't proximate to a large and wealthy country that can invest there in a similar manner to how Germany helped to lift Poland out of the mess it was in in 1989, and (2) that it never got integrated into the EU which would have put strict limits on a whole raft of things. Not that that is a guarantee but it would at least have provided a carrot and a stick instead of just a stick. I've spent a lot of time (many years) in former Sovbloc countries and I've seen up close how tremendously corrupt those countries were before the wall fell and how much heavy lifting had to be done to begin to undo the many years of erosion of the will and the hope of the people there to make a serious change. Poland and the Czech republic are the success stories, everybody else, including Hungary is still suffering tremendously in the present and I'm not all that sure about Poland in the longer term either. The scars run deep and they are plentiful. Ukraine has one better than expected given their history and proximity to Russia, as well as Russia's continuous attempts to interfere in their affairs in an attempt to turn Ukraine into another Belarus. Russia had another option: to play nice and to decrease the wealth gap but the fat cats wouldn't have it, they only know how to rape and plunder, wealth creation isn't even in their vocabulary. You can't solve the corruption issues before you have a functioning democracy and you can't have a functioning democracy whilst your 10x larger neighbor is doing its level best to destroy your political systems.