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I would say it’s not very much in the US’s interest at all. First of all, having a credible economic rival, even if they are extremely aligned with your politi

I would say it’s not very much in the US’s interest at all. First of all, having a credible economic rival, even if they are extremely aligned with your political values and culture, is still a threat. See how much the EU is attacked by the US political and media establishment. Europe is great when it is subservient to the US leadership, but the gloves come off when the EU starts leading in its own right. Second of all, unlike the EU, China is very misaligned with the US in a huge number of areas. And if China becomes the clear economic leader of the world and vastly outclasses the US and EU, we will find ourselves living under a hegemonic China where the best policy for every country is the policy China wants you to have and the best government is a government modeled after China. The US has had 80 years in this dominant role, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. But if China takes on the crown, personal freedom will surely suffer globally.

godelski 3y ago
> having a credible economic rival, even if they are extremely aligned with your political values and culture, is still a threat. I want to push back. A threat to your status, but not necessarily a threat to the world. Best friends can also be fierce rivals. That rivalry can make them grow to be better (when they try to out do one another) just as much as it can destroy them (when they try to dismantle the other's gains). The difference is in the style of competition. If you naively think things are zero sum (for some reason this is rather popular), then you can only gain by another's loss. If you recognize that the systems are positive sum, then you can both rise and grow. As an example, it is like how it is good for everyone that AMD is now able to compete with Nvidia. It is even good for Nvidia! Total GPU sales are going up and the advancements mean we can place them in more devices and do more with them (these make it positive sum. Sales and share price of __both__ stocks go up!). But it wouldn't be good if Nvidia or AMD were sabotaging each others hardware. That would be a net loss for everyone, including Nvidia. The problems here are that 1) our interests are not aligned, 2) we treat the global market as zero sum (when it isn't), 3) we are jealous and would rather our neighbor be miserable with us than see them grow or work to improve ourselves to compete.
constantly 3y ago
“China is very misaligned with the US in a huge number of areas” Can you talk more about this?
- fomine3 3y ago
  Don't follow WTO rules.
- dymk 3y ago
  Human rights comes to mind
- RC_ITR 3y ago
  China generally feels as though it was 'left out' of the modernization of politics that occurred in the mid-20th Century (and they have a point). For example, [0] The 1958 Convention on the High Seas set the rules around Maritime borders that most countries follow to this day. At the time, the PRC was not a member of the UN, the ROC (i.e. Taiwan) was [1]. As a result, a current controversy is China's claim to large parts of the South China Sea [2] Lots of issues like this emerge, since China sees itself as a ascendent world power who was unfairly excluded from decision making during the most critical parts of recent history. The problem China is facing in pushing this narrative, to be frank, is that they don't exactly play nice with neighbors and potential allies, so the US happily comes in and allies itself with countries skeptical of China. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_on_t... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_and_the_United_Nations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_and_the_United_Nations [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-dash_line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-dash_line
  - astrange 3y ago
    > The problem China is facing in pushing this narrative, to be frank, is that they don't exactly play nice with neighbors and potential allies China is remarkably bad at diplomacy and external PR (whether it's overt or propaganda); their diplomats are mostly concerned with showing off to their bosses at home, which is why react to nearly everything with straight up insults. (i.e. "wolf warrior diplomacy")
outside1234 3y ago
The EU is only attacked by the right in the US -- and it is not because they are a rival -- but because they have shown the success of investing in people and communities (healthcare, education, etc. etc.) over "tax cuts for billionaires". In practical policy we are very aligned - see Ukraine etc. etc.
- astrange 3y ago
  Surely the countries in the EU do the healthcare and education investing rather than the EU itself? The EU actually causes problems for the poorer countries because they have to be in a fiscal union with Germany.
- dougmwne 3y ago
  Then why does the NYT and WaPo swing a punch at the EU every other week? The left may be culturally more aligned, but both parties agree they hate EU trade policy.

godelski 3y ago

> having a credible economic rival, even if they are extremely aligned with your political values and culture, is still a threat. I want to push back. A threat to your status, but not necessarily a threat to the world. Best friends can also be fierce rivals. That rivalry can make them grow to be better (when they try to out do one another) just as much as it can destroy them (when they try to dismantle the other's gains). The difference is in the style of competition. If you naively think things are zero sum (for some reason this is rather popular), then you can only gain by another's loss. If you recognize that the systems are positive sum, then you can both rise and grow. As an example, it is like how it is good for everyone that AMD is now able to compete with Nvidia. It is even good for Nvidia! Total GPU sales are going up and the advancements mean we can place them in more devices and do more with them (these make it positive sum. Sales and share price of __both__ stocks go up!). But it wouldn't be good if Nvidia or AMD were sabotaging each others hardware. That would be a net loss for everyone, including Nvidia. The problems here are that 1) our interests are not aligned, 2) we treat the global market as zero sum (when it isn't), 3) we are jealous and would rather our neighbor be miserable with us than see them grow or work to improve ourselves to compete.

constantly 3y ago

“China is very misaligned with the US in a huge number of areas” Can you talk more about this?

fomine3 3y ago
Don't follow WTO rules.
dymk 3y ago
Human rights comes to mind
RC_ITR 3y ago
China generally feels as though it was 'left out' of the modernization of politics that occurred in the mid-20th Century (and they have a point). For example, [0] The 1958 Convention on the High Seas set the rules around Maritime borders that most countries follow to this day. At the time, the PRC was not a member of the UN, the ROC (i.e. Taiwan) was [1]. As a result, a current controversy is China's claim to large parts of the South China Sea [2] Lots of issues like this emerge, since China sees itself as a ascendent world power who was unfairly excluded from decision making during the most critical parts of recent history. The problem China is facing in pushing this narrative, to be frank, is that they don't exactly play nice with neighbors and potential allies, so the US happily comes in and allies itself with countries skeptical of China. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_on_t... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_and_the_United_Nations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_and_the_United_Nations [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-dash_line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-dash_line
- astrange 3y ago
  > The problem China is facing in pushing this narrative, to be frank, is that they don't exactly play nice with neighbors and potential allies China is remarkably bad at diplomacy and external PR (whether it's overt or propaganda); their diplomats are mostly concerned with showing off to their bosses at home, which is why react to nearly everything with straight up insults. (i.e. "wolf warrior diplomacy")

outside1234 3y ago

The EU is only attacked by the right in the US -- and it is not because they are a rival -- but because they have shown the success of investing in people and communities (healthcare, education, etc. etc.) over "tax cuts for billionaires". In practical policy we are very aligned - see Ukraine etc. etc.

astrange 3y ago
Surely the countries in the EU do the healthcare and education investing rather than the EU itself? The EU actually causes problems for the poorer countries because they have to be in a fiscal union with Germany.
dougmwne 3y ago
Then why does the NYT and WaPo swing a punch at the EU every other week? The left may be culturally more aligned, but both parties agree they hate EU trade policy.