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> The Federal Aviation Administration said in June that it would start mandatory monthly safety training sessions for air-traffic controllers across the U.S. af

> The Federal Aviation Administration said in June that it would start mandatory monthly safety training sessions for air-traffic controllers across the U.S. after a spike in near misses. > In the first two months of the year, eight incidents involving airliners on or near runways were rated by the FAA as a serious risk of a collision or prompted the NTSB to open an investigation. That’s almost double the annual average for the previous five years. What's going on in control towers that's causing this? Did hiring standards for ATCs drop all of a sudden, or something like that?

rcktmrtn 3y ago
> What's going on in control towers that's causing this? Did hiring standards for ATCs drop all of a sudden, or something like that? There was a fairly major change recently [1]. Before 2014, the FAA used to be biased towards recruits that had been already trained in a program on someone else's dime (military or university). Perhaps their on-the-job training isn't quite good enough to compensate for that change yet. I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_traffic_controller#2014_changes_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_traffic_controller#2014_ch...
atonse 3y ago
Honestly, given that you're seeing labor shortages in just about every industry, I have to imagine that labor shortages probably play a role in ATC being overworked? Can anyone comment on this? It feels like a more believable explanation given they wouldn't be immune, especially given it's such a high stress job.
- flutas 3y ago
  They also have a mandatory retirement age (56) and afaik, a lot of the more seasoned ATCs are getting near that age. Article from 2014 that touches on this, and goes into more depth about some reasoning. https://www.cnbc.com/2014/12/15/blame-the-faa-for-air-traffic-controller-shortage-retirement-commnentary.html https://www.cnbc.com/2014/12/15/blame-the-faa-for-air-traffi...
- mym1990 3y ago
  Edit: missed the part about the tower controllers specifically, but the below still holds I think. Partner is a FA, and can confirm that just about every department is understaffed and overworked. Unions can't strike due to Railway Labor Act and the current contracts under negotiations have been going for 2+ years...in which a lot has changed in the industry. There is little light at the end of the tunnel and my fear is that it will take one or more catastrophic incidents before something is actually done.
- sjsdaiuasgdia 3y ago
  Here's a report the Dept of Transportation released a couple months ago: https://www.oig.dot.gov/library-item/39530 https://www.oig.dot.gov/library-item/39530 I haven't read it in full yet, the "What We Found" section seems to focus on training being paused during covid and a general lack of organization-wide tools and visibility around staffing. I found that from this Forbes article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2023/06/26/faa-lacks-a-plan-for-air-traffic-control-shortage-per-government-report/?sh=4d90b95d3a26 https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2023/06/26... The Forbes article suggests the problem began with the 2013 federal budget fight and resulting sequestration, which cut some programs and eliminated others.
throw9away6 3y ago
Since it’s government they can’t raise wages to attract talent so they keep going lower and lower down in standards until at some point they can’t even find people to meet the required minimum
- robotnikman 3y ago
  I was under the impression ATC's made good money, like 6 figures easily?
  - pc86 3y ago
    They do make good money, and there's no evidence to support the claim that training or acceptance standards have been diminished at all.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    That could be true and still not be good-money-for-the-work-and-stress.
  - missedthecue 3y ago
    The mean annual wage is $130,840 according to the BLS. That's two times the national mean of $61,900. There are very few occupations where the mean can compete with Air Traffic Control in terms of take home pay. https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes532021.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes532021.htm
    - nunez 3y ago
      They make good money but the job is super duper stressful and has long hours afaik.
  - mathgeek 3y ago
    The underlying issue is public roles are heavily budget restricted. If the role pays well, administrators often have to reduce headcount as the trade off.
  - deleted 3y ago
alistairSH 3y ago
A few things related to this incident... - The US allows landing clearance to be granted on occupied runways. It also allows landing clearance to planes who aren't next-to-land. This invites this sort of problem and, IIRC, isn't normal (or allowed?) in the EU. - This particular ATC seems to be overloaded/distracted. She spend a lot of time providing adjusted altitudes to a waiting plane, while leave the SWA jet lined-up without clearance to take-off and a line of other planes on approach (two of which she had issued landing clearance). Is this happening more often, or are recent events a random fluke? I don't know.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- alfalfasprout 3y ago
  Not sure why this is being upvoted. ICAO doesn't expressly forbid line up and wait clearances with someone on final approach. In fact they're quite common in the EU. They're often conditional though (eg; "BEHIND the landing aircraft".) Pilots can mistake the aircraft being referred to, etc. In general conditional type clearances have always been somewhat sketchy especially at busy airports where workloads are high.
  - alistairSH 3y ago
    You're correct, EASA allows conditional clearances ("clear to land after departing plane clears runway"). But the linked event was not a conditional clearance. The approaching jet was cleared to land, meanwhile the ATC got distracted and left the SWA jet on the active runway without clearance to take-off. IIRC, EASA requires the conditional to be explicit, with the condition named and read back, and both ATC and cleared plane to have visual on the conditional aircraft.
shrubble 3y ago
It's a decline in hiring standards due to other factors than how high you score on the tests being considered.
notabee 3y ago
Pick one or several: * Air traffic controller scabs during Reagan years are all retiring. * Difficulty attracting and training new air traffic controllers, which takes years to do the training and is a high burnout job. * Widespread effects of a virus that often causes cognitive damage, fatigue, and/or outright disability in many that's been circulating for almost 4 years.
- foota 3y ago
  I've also heard it suggested that there was a lull in traffic during COVID that might have made people lose their edge.
  - organsnyder 3y ago
    Not to mention how many of them could be suffering long COVID (perhaps without even recognizing it).
    - notabee 3y ago
      I find it odd that you're basically reiterating my third point and yet you're the one getting downvotes, presumably because you actually used the "C" word. The level of denial about mass disablement (temporary, semi-temporary, or permanent) just gets more and more ridiculous.
      - badcppdev 3y ago
        Downvotes are sometimes given to short comments that don't add anything extra to the thread. That might be the case here as your original comment was quite clear.
- CamperBob2 3y ago
  Also seems that this is one of the easiest jobs to automate in the future. Keep planes from running into each other. How hard could that be? If a computer can drag a 9-dan Go champion up and down the board, it can do this. I'm sure I'll be told differently any minute now, but... if I were a young person looking for a career, ATC is going to be very far down the list. Concerns about future automation will become a self-fulling prophecy once no humans are available to do the job.
ShakataGaNai 3y ago
Critical staffing shortages at ATC https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/critical-us-air-traffic-controller-facilities-face-staffing-shortages-audit-2023-06-23/ https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/critical-... It's a tough job that typically requires intense focus and rotation very very very regularly. Like 20mn to 2 hours "on frequency" at a time, depending on the airport and how busy it is. Working people long and hard, they are bound to make mistakes eventually.
jnwatson 3y ago
What does safety training look like for an ATC? Isn’t that their entire job?

rcktmrtn 3y ago

> What's going on in control towers that's causing this? Did hiring standards for ATCs drop all of a sudden, or something like that? There was a fairly major change recently [1]. Before 2014, the FAA used to be biased towards recruits that had been already trained in a program on someone else's dime (military or university). Perhaps their on-the-job training isn't quite good enough to compensate for that change yet. I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_traffic_controller#2014_changes_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_traffic_controller#2014_ch...

atonse 3y ago

Honestly, given that you're seeing labor shortages in just about every industry, I have to imagine that labor shortages probably play a role in ATC being overworked? Can anyone comment on this? It feels like a more believable explanation given they wouldn't be immune, especially given it's such a high stress job.

flutas 3y ago
They also have a mandatory retirement age (56) and afaik, a lot of the more seasoned ATCs are getting near that age. Article from 2014 that touches on this, and goes into more depth about some reasoning. https://www.cnbc.com/2014/12/15/blame-the-faa-for-air-traffic-controller-shortage-retirement-commnentary.html https://www.cnbc.com/2014/12/15/blame-the-faa-for-air-traffi...
mym1990 3y ago
Edit: missed the part about the tower controllers specifically, but the below still holds I think. Partner is a FA, and can confirm that just about every department is understaffed and overworked. Unions can't strike due to Railway Labor Act and the current contracts under negotiations have been going for 2+ years...in which a lot has changed in the industry. There is little light at the end of the tunnel and my fear is that it will take one or more catastrophic incidents before something is actually done.
sjsdaiuasgdia 3y ago
Here's a report the Dept of Transportation released a couple months ago: https://www.oig.dot.gov/library-item/39530 https://www.oig.dot.gov/library-item/39530 I haven't read it in full yet, the "What We Found" section seems to focus on training being paused during covid and a general lack of organization-wide tools and visibility around staffing. I found that from this Forbes article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2023/06/26/faa-lacks-a-plan-for-air-traffic-control-shortage-per-government-report/?sh=4d90b95d3a26 https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2023/06/26... The Forbes article suggests the problem began with the 2013 federal budget fight and resulting sequestration, which cut some programs and eliminated others.

throw9away6 3y ago

Since it’s government they can’t raise wages to attract talent so they keep going lower and lower down in standards until at some point they can’t even find people to meet the required minimum

robotnikman 3y ago
I was under the impression ATC's made good money, like 6 figures easily?
- pc86 3y ago
  They do make good money, and there's no evidence to support the claim that training or acceptance standards have been diminished at all.
- bombcar 3y ago
  That could be true and still not be good-money-for-the-work-and-stress.
- missedthecue 3y ago
  The mean annual wage is $130,840 according to the BLS. That's two times the national mean of $61,900. There are very few occupations where the mean can compete with Air Traffic Control in terms of take home pay. https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes532021.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes532021.htm
  - nunez 3y ago
    They make good money but the job is super duper stressful and has long hours afaik.
- mathgeek 3y ago
  The underlying issue is public roles are heavily budget restricted. If the role pays well, administrators often have to reduce headcount as the trade off.
- deleted 3y ago

alistairSH 3y ago

A few things related to this incident... - The US allows landing clearance to be granted on occupied runways. It also allows landing clearance to planes who aren't next-to-land. This invites this sort of problem and, IIRC, isn't normal (or allowed?) in the EU. - This particular ATC seems to be overloaded/distracted. She spend a lot of time providing adjusted altitudes to a waiting plane, while leave the SWA jet lined-up without clearance to take-off and a line of other planes on approach (two of which she had issued landing clearance). Is this happening more often, or are recent events a random fluke? I don't know.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
alfalfasprout 3y ago
Not sure why this is being upvoted. ICAO doesn't expressly forbid line up and wait clearances with someone on final approach. In fact they're quite common in the EU. They're often conditional though (eg; "BEHIND the landing aircraft".) Pilots can mistake the aircraft being referred to, etc. In general conditional type clearances have always been somewhat sketchy especially at busy airports where workloads are high.
- alistairSH 3y ago
  You're correct, EASA allows conditional clearances ("clear to land after departing plane clears runway"). But the linked event was not a conditional clearance. The approaching jet was cleared to land, meanwhile the ATC got distracted and left the SWA jet on the active runway without clearance to take-off. IIRC, EASA requires the conditional to be explicit, with the condition named and read back, and both ATC and cleared plane to have visual on the conditional aircraft.

shrubble 3y ago

It's a decline in hiring standards due to other factors than how high you score on the tests being considered.

notabee 3y ago

Pick one or several: * Air traffic controller scabs during Reagan years are all retiring. * Difficulty attracting and training new air traffic controllers, which takes years to do the training and is a high burnout job. * Widespread effects of a virus that often causes cognitive damage, fatigue, and/or outright disability in many that's been circulating for almost 4 years.

foota 3y ago
I've also heard it suggested that there was a lull in traffic during COVID that might have made people lose their edge.
- organsnyder 3y ago
  Not to mention how many of them could be suffering long COVID (perhaps without even recognizing it).
  - notabee 3y ago
    I find it odd that you're basically reiterating my third point and yet you're the one getting downvotes, presumably because you actually used the "C" word. The level of denial about mass disablement (temporary, semi-temporary, or permanent) just gets more and more ridiculous.
    - badcppdev 3y ago
      Downvotes are sometimes given to short comments that don't add anything extra to the thread. That might be the case here as your original comment was quite clear.
CamperBob2 3y ago
Also seems that this is one of the easiest jobs to automate in the future. Keep planes from running into each other. How hard could that be? If a computer can drag a 9-dan Go champion up and down the board, it can do this. I'm sure I'll be told differently any minute now, but... if I were a young person looking for a career, ATC is going to be very far down the list. Concerns about future automation will become a self-fulling prophecy once no humans are available to do the job.

ShakataGaNai 3y ago

Critical staffing shortages at ATC https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/critical-us-air-traffic-controller-facilities-face-staffing-shortages-audit-2023-06-23/ https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/critical-... It's a tough job that typically requires intense focus and rotation very very very regularly. Like 20mn to 2 hours "on frequency" at a time, depending on the airport and how busy it is. Working people long and hard, they are bound to make mistakes eventually.

jnwatson 3y ago

What does safety training look like for an ATC? Isn’t that their entire job?