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Private jet came ‘within 100 feet’ of colliding with Southwest plane, NTSB says
- hggh 3y agoReal footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZKj-MFzY1Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZKj-MFzY1Q
- throwbadubadu 3y agoEU unavailable.. https://web.archive.org/web/20230815144722/https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2023/08/14/ntsb-probes-near-collision-of-southwest-airlines-business-jets-in-san-diego/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230815144722/https://www.dalla...
- hggh 3y agoVideo with ATC audio of the incident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0DkXRwfaoE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0DkXRwfaoE
- LatteLazy 3y agoThanks, that's very informative! It looks like the same ATC person lined up the southwest plane to take off and the private jet to land at the same time. Then realised and aborted at the last minute. Is that right? The ATC should not have moved the south west plane onto the runway before the private jet landed. Correct? (Edit: atrocious spelling)
- daviding 3y agoI think the plan was for the Southwest to be given take off clearance quickly before the private jet arrived, but the controller got distracted by a route amendment for another flight that came in and they got their priorities wrong. In the US it's not uncommon for a 'Cleared to Land' to be given while something is then lining up and waiting for immediate Take Off clearance. In the EU / Canada this isn't allowed (landing clearance is only given if the runway is completely clear), but then the US pushes a lot more aircraft through its busy airspace this way. San Diego is a busy airport with just a single runway (due to the geography) near a couple of military bases and has a steep approach over the city - if there had been some ground fog like there often is at KSAN then this could have ended very differently. Also, you can see in the video that due to the steep approach, the SWA was at the beginning of the runway, but the jet on approach would have landed further down, as the landing is offset there. This still would have be been dangerous but not a definite case of collision.
- jtriangle 3y agoThey don't land planes at KSAN in the fog, because of the steep decent. So it would have ended very differently, because that Citation would have been diverted elsewhere. Real error here was that SWA should have been told to hold short and then expedite as the SWA boys like to do after Citation was clear or to expedite from the getgo. Both would have worked just fine. Also worth mentioning that while you can give landing clearance onto a runway that is not clear at the time, you still cannot have multiple aircraft on a given runway simultaneously, and there are very strict minimum separation requirements that vary depending on the airport which for KSAN is 5NM
- alistairSH 3y agothen the US pushes a lot more aircraft through its busy airspace this way This may be true overall, but San Diego is barely top-25 in the US in passenger traffic. And Heathrow is busier (even measuring per runway, since it has 2). And both Gatwick and Mumbai handle more flights on a single runway.
- ShakataGaNai 3y agoYea. The incoming jet was on a 5-mile final. Being a small jet it's "slow" so that 5-mile final is 3-5 minutes. You can see 19:04Z when the Southwest jet get's the "line up and wait". 19:07Z is the missed approach. If ATC has given them the departure clearance relatively quickly, there would have been no issue as Southwest would have hit the gas and been long gone... but ATC didn't. This is not uncommon for aircraft to get on the runway and take off while another aircraft is on final. If you want a good video of how this more typically works (and sometimes doesn't work), here's one from an incident at SFO about 2 months ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrRGde5J8mo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrRGde5J8mo And another from SFO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4cewwhcL5c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4cewwhcL5c In both the SFO cases, they got the "go around" from ATC much earlier and no one got too close to each other. Keeping in mind that SFO is extremely busy and lands two parallel runways at the same time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsKhZm78DuY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsKhZm78DuY
- hmmstedaa 3y ago[dead]
- gottorf 3y ago> The Federal Aviation Administration said in June that it would start mandatory monthly safety training sessions for air-traffic controllers across the U.S. after a spike in near misses. > In the first two months of the year, eight incidents involving airliners on or near runways were rated by the FAA as a serious risk of a collision or prompted the NTSB to open an investigation. That’s almost double the annual average for the previous five years. What's going on in control towers that's causing this? Did hiring standards for ATCs drop all of a sudden, or something like that?
- rcktmrtn 3y ago> What's going on in control towers that's causing this? Did hiring standards for ATCs drop all of a sudden, or something like that? There was a fairly major change recently [1]. Before 2014, the FAA used to be biased towards recruits that had been already trained in a program on someone else's dime (military or university). Perhaps their on-the-job training isn't quite good enough to compensate for that change yet. I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_traffic_controller#2014_changes_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_traffic_controller#2014_ch...
- atonse 3y agoHonestly, given that you're seeing labor shortages in just about every industry, I have to imagine that labor shortages probably play a role in ATC being overworked? Can anyone comment on this? It feels like a more believable explanation given they wouldn't be immune, especially given it's such a high stress job.
- flutas 3y agoThey also have a mandatory retirement age (56) and afaik, a lot of the more seasoned ATCs are getting near that age. Article from 2014 that touches on this, and goes into more depth about some reasoning. https://www.cnbc.com/2014/12/15/blame-the-faa-for-air-traffic-controller-shortage-retirement-commnentary.html https://www.cnbc.com/2014/12/15/blame-the-faa-for-air-traffi...
- mym1990 3y ago
- Gelob 3y agoI love how never on the ATC is someone like oh shit we almost just died wtf was that
- mym1990 3y agoFrom some of the calls I have listened to(engines failing, landing gears failing, close calls, etc...), it is incredible how composed the parties involved are! As much as some people point the finger at one person in the situation, the important thing is that these incidents are an opportunity to learn, and that is something the aviation industry seems to do very well.
- xwdv 3y agoIf you don’t stay composed you’re pretty much fired.
- mathgeek 3y agoIt’s likely part of their training. Adding personal commentary to comms during a tense situation only increases the likelihood of a bad outcome.
- bombcar 3y agoThe ATC almost never does that, but I've certainly heard the pilots say it - or even other pilots comment on it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiG3uiZWvUE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiG3uiZWvUE for example.
- m3kw9 3y agoTakes a lot of luck to hit something in 3d when both are trying to avoid each other
- reducesuffering 3y agoYet it still tragically happens unless we're extremely vigilant https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWkYiJgaVFw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWkYiJgaVFw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_%C3%9Cberlingen_mid-air_collision https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_%C3%9Cberlingen_mid-air_c...
- LatteLazy 3y agoThat's true. But in this case no one was avoiding anyone, since neither knew the other one was there. And it's not exactly 3d when your both using the same runway. More like 1d...
- lowbloodsugar 3y agoUnless they are aiming for the same point in space, such as a runway.
- blantonl 3y agoPilot here: I'd bet you 100 bucks the Citation had the Southwest 737 in sight the entire time while on the approach, and knew exactly what was going on. There was almost certainly little to no danger of a collision. When on a visual approach like this you are literally watching the runway the entire time. You can hear the Citation confirm and ask twice if they were still cleared to land, even after they were already cleared to land, so the Citation was gently nudging the controller that "hey, there's still an airplane on the runway." It was a go around at the airport because of existing traffic on the runway. This happens all the time. Granted the controller got bogged down task wise, but the Citation knew it. I'd even bet you that the Alaska flight behind the Citation watched the whole thing go down with amusement.
- melevittfl 3y agoIf the Citation pilot had the southwest plane in sight when they reached the decision height and kept going, rather than go around, wouldn’t that be an error on their part?
- quercusa 3y agoSouthwest's paint scheme ensures they will be highly visible!