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Interesting article, but isn't $75,000 a year pretty much slave wages in Manhattan? You could barely afford a small studio apartment for that much, and most li

Interesting article, but isn't $75,000 a year pretty much slave wages in Manhattan? You could barely afford a small studio apartment for that much, and most likely need to live outside of downtown and commute in every day.

mdkess 15y ago
Wages have gone up a lot since then, I would be very surprised if Fog Creek offered less $90,000 these days - that's about what most software companies offers start at. Heck, I hear that Facebook is offering $100,000 base salary for kids right out of school, so by all means they could be paying more. Also of note - the transition from $75,000 to $90,000 just means a wage increase of just shy of 4% per year, which seems expected.
- nvarsj 15y ago
  Fog creek is going to be competing with other companies in NYC, not in the bay area. I expect that the majority of candidates on the west coast are not willing to move. Also consider that Facebook is in a bidding war with Google, MS, and Apple - which has spiked starting salaries in that market.
  - RandallBrown 15y ago
    Fog Creek is absolutely competing with companies in the Bay Area. I'm not even talking about Google and Microsoft's New York offices. Maybe west coast candidates won't move but what about all of the people that live in other parts of the country? Most people I know are scrambling to get out of the midwest as fast as they can.
    - adrianparsons 15y ago
      Facebook and Twitter now have NYC offices. Ebay is opening an office here, too (http://www.commercialobserver.com/2012/03/ebay-in-talks-for-36k-sf-deal-on-sixth/ http://www.commercialobserver.com/2012/03/ebay-in-talks-for-...).
  - mdkess 15y ago
    In many ways, NYC is an even harder market to compete in, due to the financial industry. If you are a good hacker, hedge funds will offer $150k+/year to start - and if you're able to deal the intensity of it, that'll quickly go up. I know guys in their late 20s making over $300k a year writing code for these firms. These are salaries that most software companies can't match, even if they wanted to.
    - illumin8 15y ago
      This is why $75,000 a year is not a fair salary. Joel is intentionally hiring college students because they are uneducated about what their real job prospects are if they are willing to move to NYC.
      - tedunangst 15y ago
        Having worked at Fog Creek, I thought the total compensation was fair. Here, total compensation includes things like never working weekends, never working late, never getting yelled at, never getting phones thrown at you, and all sorts of other perks that probably equate to different dollar amounts for different people. ymmv.
        KaeseEs 15y ago
        Those things are all worth $0 because they are the baseline for an employer. When accounting for these things in a total comp calculation, I do it something like this: $comp = (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5) - (6 + 7 + 8) where [1] Salary / cost of living index for area [2] adjusted value of health care plan [3] adjusted expected bonuses/profit sharing [4] retirement contributions per annum [5] dollar value of stock options given * chance of options vesting at some worthwhile value (tricky to calculate for startups) [6] expected hours per week over 40 * .025 * [1] [7] estimated value of environmental and other stress [8] cost in time, gas, stress, vehicle wear & tear, inconvenience of commuting Now, it may well be the case that other companies that you looked at had large negative values of 6 & 7, which makes Fog Creek look great in comparison, but I think that as a profession we're screwing ourselves in the long run if we think about uncompensated overtime as the norm and working normal hours as some sort of bonus :)
natesm 15y ago
I'd be surprised if young people wanted to live downtown anyways, not much happens there. I live in Williamsburg and ride the subway for about 20 minutes. Not really a big deal, and much better than any commute involving owning a car.
- hipsterelitist 15y ago
  Be surprised. Living on the LES or Nolita can very easily be done on 75k without the 20 minute crowded commute on the L train. Plus there is quite a lot to do, I don't understand this Brooklyn-centric view of the world that developers and the NYT's have developed.
scpike 15y ago
The article is from 2007, when typical starting salaries in Manhattan were in the $55-$65K range (since increased to at least ~80K).
michael_miller 15y ago
It's hard to live on $75k in Manhattan, but you can live fairly comfortably on that salary in other boroughs or NJ. I would be very surprised if the offer hadn't gone up substantially since this post was written. Nowadays, new grad offers for well-paying companies (Google, Facebook, etc.) are in the ~$100k range for salary, with a bunch of stock and signing bonus thrown in. Fog Creek wouldn't be getting the top 1% of talent if they weren't matching these offers.
- GuiA 15y ago
  But these offers you mention (FB, Google, etc.) are in Silicon Valley— are salaries in the valley and in NYC comparable?
  - Duff 15y ago
    For an intern, I would guess that $75k is a better salary in New York. You need a car in California.
    - indspenceable 15y ago
      Not true, if you live in the city.
  - esrauch 15y ago
    I'm not sure about the others, but Google has a sizable NYC office (and a moderate sized Boston office) and allegedly the salaries are adjusted up to account somewhat for cost of living.
jonathanjaeger 15y ago
You can EASILY live on $75K in a studio in Manhattan. What kind of lavish lifestyle are you trying to live? You don't need a car in NYC. Edit: Maybe starting salaries in NYC for tech startups are that high for programmers, but other positions tend to be in the $35K-$50K range.
- seancoughlin 15y ago
  Second that. I lived for a year in Manhattan (East Village) while working on my start-up - I had roommates, but I made well under 75k and was just fine. Was still able to do all the things a 25 yr old guy wanted to do. The idea that it takes $75k+ to make it work in Manhattan is a farce perpetuated by big banks selling shitty jobs to naive grads and people who don't know how to budget/ be thrifty on message boards.
  - michaelpinto 15y ago
    But think about the long run: Roommates are great until you hit age 30 or so and settle down and get married and maybe have kids (no pressure here Sean!). At that point Manhattan becomes painful unless you are married into money. Now you could move out to Brooklyn or your startup can avoid older employees (which is illegal), but if you grow your company to over ten people you can hit those issues pretty quickly. Also it's a spectrum -- Manhattan on $60 can work while being in NYC on $25k is a nightmare.
    - jonathanjaeger 15y ago
      Yup. But they were talking about starting salaries on the Fog Creek thing. $75K right out of college for a young adult opens a lot of doors. But I definitely agree that being 30 with a kid, rather than 22-24, would be a lot harder on $75K.
  - samstave 15y ago
    >Was still able to do all the things a 25 yr old guy wanted to do Yeah, at 25 its easy. When you're 37, married, two kids, etc.. My minimum required salary is well over 100K
klbarry 15y ago
Two people can live incredibly comfortably for $60,000 a year total. Just live in a studio in cheaper Manhattan or a one bedroom in queens. The median family income for nyc is about 54000.
- sedachv 15y ago
  Two people (I assume bf/gf or spouses and not a depression-era immigrant flophouse roommate situation) in a studio apartment is in no way comfortable.

mdkess 15y ago

Wages have gone up a lot since then, I would be very surprised if Fog Creek offered less $90,000 these days - that's about what most software companies offers start at. Heck, I hear that Facebook is offering $100,000 base salary for kids right out of school, so by all means they could be paying more. Also of note - the transition from $75,000 to $90,000 just means a wage increase of just shy of 4% per year, which seems expected.

nvarsj 15y ago
Fog creek is going to be competing with other companies in NYC, not in the bay area. I expect that the majority of candidates on the west coast are not willing to move. Also consider that Facebook is in a bidding war with Google, MS, and Apple - which has spiked starting salaries in that market.
- RandallBrown 15y ago
  Fog Creek is absolutely competing with companies in the Bay Area. I'm not even talking about Google and Microsoft's New York offices. Maybe west coast candidates won't move but what about all of the people that live in other parts of the country? Most people I know are scrambling to get out of the midwest as fast as they can.
  - adrianparsons 15y ago
    Facebook and Twitter now have NYC offices. Ebay is opening an office here, too (http://www.commercialobserver.com/2012/03/ebay-in-talks-for-36k-sf-deal-on-sixth/ http://www.commercialobserver.com/2012/03/ebay-in-talks-for-...).
- mdkess 15y ago
  In many ways, NYC is an even harder market to compete in, due to the financial industry. If you are a good hacker, hedge funds will offer $150k+/year to start - and if you're able to deal the intensity of it, that'll quickly go up. I know guys in their late 20s making over $300k a year writing code for these firms. These are salaries that most software companies can't match, even if they wanted to.
  - illumin8 15y ago
    This is why $75,000 a year is not a fair salary. Joel is intentionally hiring college students because they are uneducated about what their real job prospects are if they are willing to move to NYC.
    - tedunangst 15y ago
      Having worked at Fog Creek, I thought the total compensation was fair. Here, total compensation includes things like never working weekends, never working late, never getting yelled at, never getting phones thrown at you, and all sorts of other perks that probably equate to different dollar amounts for different people. ymmv.
      - KaeseEs 15y ago
        Those things are all worth $0 because they are the baseline for an employer. When accounting for these things in a total comp calculation, I do it something like this: $comp = (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5) - (6 + 7 + 8) where [1] Salary / cost of living index for area [2] adjusted value of health care plan [3] adjusted expected bonuses/profit sharing [4] retirement contributions per annum [5] dollar value of stock options given * chance of options vesting at some worthwhile value (tricky to calculate for startups) [6] expected hours per week over 40 * .025 * [1] [7] estimated value of environmental and other stress [8] cost in time, gas, stress, vehicle wear & tear, inconvenience of commuting Now, it may well be the case that other companies that you looked at had large negative values of 6 & 7, which makes Fog Creek look great in comparison, but I think that as a profession we're screwing ourselves in the long run if we think about uncompensated overtime as the norm and working normal hours as some sort of bonus :)

natesm 15y ago

I'd be surprised if young people wanted to live downtown anyways, not much happens there. I live in Williamsburg and ride the subway for about 20 minutes. Not really a big deal, and much better than any commute involving owning a car.

hipsterelitist 15y ago
Be surprised. Living on the LES or Nolita can very easily be done on 75k without the 20 minute crowded commute on the L train. Plus there is quite a lot to do, I don't understand this Brooklyn-centric view of the world that developers and the NYT's have developed.

scpike 15y ago

The article is from 2007, when typical starting salaries in Manhattan were in the $55-$65K range (since increased to at least ~80K).

michael_miller 15y ago

It's hard to live on $75k in Manhattan, but you can live fairly comfortably on that salary in other boroughs or NJ. I would be very surprised if the offer hadn't gone up substantially since this post was written. Nowadays, new grad offers for well-paying companies (Google, Facebook, etc.) are in the ~$100k range for salary, with a bunch of stock and signing bonus thrown in. Fog Creek wouldn't be getting the top 1% of talent if they weren't matching these offers.

GuiA 15y ago
But these offers you mention (FB, Google, etc.) are in Silicon Valley— are salaries in the valley and in NYC comparable?
- Duff 15y ago
  For an intern, I would guess that $75k is a better salary in New York. You need a car in California.
  - indspenceable 15y ago
    Not true, if you live in the city.
- esrauch 15y ago
  I'm not sure about the others, but Google has a sizable NYC office (and a moderate sized Boston office) and allegedly the salaries are adjusted up to account somewhat for cost of living.

jonathanjaeger 15y ago

You can EASILY live on $75K in a studio in Manhattan. What kind of lavish lifestyle are you trying to live? You don't need a car in NYC. Edit: Maybe starting salaries in NYC for tech startups are that high for programmers, but other positions tend to be in the $35K-$50K range.

seancoughlin 15y ago
Second that. I lived for a year in Manhattan (East Village) while working on my start-up - I had roommates, but I made well under 75k and was just fine. Was still able to do all the things a 25 yr old guy wanted to do. The idea that it takes $75k+ to make it work in Manhattan is a farce perpetuated by big banks selling shitty jobs to naive grads and people who don't know how to budget/ be thrifty on message boards.
- michaelpinto 15y ago
  But think about the long run: Roommates are great until you hit age 30 or so and settle down and get married and maybe have kids (no pressure here Sean!). At that point Manhattan becomes painful unless you are married into money. Now you could move out to Brooklyn or your startup can avoid older employees (which is illegal), but if you grow your company to over ten people you can hit those issues pretty quickly. Also it's a spectrum -- Manhattan on $60 can work while being in NYC on $25k is a nightmare.
  - jonathanjaeger 15y ago
    Yup. But they were talking about starting salaries on the Fog Creek thing. $75K right out of college for a young adult opens a lot of doors. But I definitely agree that being 30 with a kid, rather than 22-24, would be a lot harder on $75K.
- samstave 15y ago
  >Was still able to do all the things a 25 yr old guy wanted to do Yeah, at 25 its easy. When you're 37, married, two kids, etc.. My minimum required salary is well over 100K

klbarry 15y ago

Two people can live incredibly comfortably for $60,000 a year total. Just live in a studio in cheaper Manhattan or a one bedroom in queens. The median family income for nyc is about 54000.

sedachv 15y ago
Two people (I assume bf/gf or spouses and not a depression-era immigrant flophouse roommate situation) in a studio apartment is in no way comfortable.