6 ms·

It is a secret if the system does not inform the poster it's been penalized.

by rhaksw 3y ago

altairprime 3y ago
What is it if the information is freely available, to anyone asking, for a single domain they are trying to post at that time? It’s not secret, because they’ll be provided an answer if they email the mod team. It’s not free as in open source, because it isn’t available for anyone to download and study in full. So, since it’s not secret, is it public, or private? Since it’s not published in full but any query of LIMIT 1 is answered, is that open, closed, or other? Restrictions to publication don’t necessarily equate to secrecy, but the best I’ve got is “available upon request”, which isn’t quite right either. Suggestions welcome.
- rhaksw 3y ago
  Content moderation systems often hide mod actions from the content author [1]. That's a secret. The opposite would be to show the author of the content some indicator that it's been removed, and I would call that transparent or disclosed moderation. Interestingly, your comment first appeared to me as "* * *" with no author [2]. I wonder if that is some kind of ban. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e6BIkKBZpg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e6BIkKBZpg [2] https://i.imgur.com/oGnXc6W.png https://i.imgur.com/oGnXc6W.png edit I know you commented again but it's got that "* * *" thing again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37130675 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37130675 https://archive.is/Eov7z https://archive.is/Eov7z
  - altairprime 3y ago
    There’s a protection system in place that can result in that; I don’t have the details at hand (since I’m not associated with HN/YC) but I remember seeing it once before on a highly contentious post, and an email to the mods helped explain/correct whatever was up.
  - dang 3y ago
    It's not a ban. It appears when the user has 'delay' in their profile set to N minutes and N minutes haven't elapsed yet. We should probably make this more explicit. Re the 'delay' setting see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html.
    - altairprime 3y ago
      Ah, that makes sense. Thanks!
- vasco 3y ago
  > Suggestions welcome "This domain is not allowed on HN" as an error message upon submission.
  - altairprime 3y ago
    That’s not going to work, because now that’s an API for spammers to bulk process against a domain list. The only available API must be human communication to the mod team, or the spammers will overcome it with automation.
    - dontupvoteme 3y ago
      That's trivial to figure out. It's quite possible the reason the list isn't public is because it would give away information about what thought is allowed and what thought isn't.
      - altairprime 3y ago
        > That’s trivial to figure out. Elaborate.
    - vasco 3y ago
      Spammers can already do that API call and see if the domain shows up. This only puts human users at the same level of consideration as spammer automation.
      - altairprime 3y ago
        Seriously dedicated spammers can, yes! But antispam is about reducing the noise threshold, and eliminating low-effort spam opportunities that can be done to a single HTTP endpoint with a bash script is a big win. Simply having to access two pages is already too much to bother with for the vast majority.
  - djur 3y ago
    That encourages switching to another domain for spammy submissions.
predictabl3 3y ago
There's a lot of user hostile moderation practices that occur on this site, manual and automatic. They're not often, or really at all, discussed. Some of them don't work well, and haven't for as long as they've existed.
- dang 3y ago
  I don't want us to be user hostile. Can you link to some examples?
  - johngladtj 3y ago
    I would consider any moderation action that isn't visible to users to be user hostile. If you're going to censor someone, you owe it to them to be honest about what you're doing to them.
    - nunez 3y ago
      If it's visible, it can be worked around. Blame the trolls that prevent us from having nice things.
    - hk__2 3y ago
      Shadow banning is one of the most effective ways to fight spam and harassment. Not being "honest" with spammers and harassers can often be a good thing.
    - DamonHD 3y ago
      You possibly haven't experienced how devious and determined and dishonest and unpleasant some bad actors are, including SPAMmers. (Even when doing the RightThing(TM) would probably be easier...) And, BTW, I occasionally get blocked by the mechanisms here, even though not doing anything bad, but understand that there is a trade-off.
      - johngladtj 3y ago
        I am fully aware of the issue. That's one of the costs with having a public website.
dredmorbius 3y ago
HN operates, based on a number of reasons, on numerous dynamics of friction and nudges. Mostly for the better. I've had my disagreements about things in the past, though as I watch the site and have studied it (particularly over the past few months, see: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36843900 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36843900>) I mostly agree with it. The parts that don't work especially well, most particularly discussion of difficult-but-important topics (in my view) ... have also been acknowledged by its creator pg (Paul Graham) and mods (publicly, dang, though there are a few others). In general: if you submit a story and it doesn't go well, drop a note to the moderators: hn@ycombinator.com. They typically reply within a few hours, perhaps a day or if things are busy or for complex. You can verify that a submission did or didn't go through by checking on the link from an unauthenticated (logged-out) session.
- rhaksw 3y ago
  > if you submit a story and it doesn't go well, drop a note to the moderators > You can verify that a submission did or didn't go through by checking on the link from an unauthenticated (logged-out) session. Trustful users do not think to do this, and it would not be necessary if the system did not keep the mod action secret.
  - dredmorbius 3y ago
    Trustful souls may not. Those who have been advised to do so, through the Guidelines, FAQ, comments, or moderator notes, do, to their advantage. (I'd had a submission shadowbanned as it came from the notoriously flameworthy site LinkedIn a month or few back. I noticed this, emailed the mods, and got that post un-banned. Just to note that the process is in place, and does work.)
    - rhaksw 3y ago
      You don't see the harm of elbowing out trustful people from the public square?
      - 3y ago

It is a secret if the system does not inform the poster it's been penalized.

by rhaksw 3y ago

It is a secret if the system does not inform the poster it's been penalized.

What is it if the information is freely available, to anyone asking, for a single domain they are trying to post at that time? It’s not secret, because they’ll be provided an answer if they email the mod team. It’s not free as in open source, because it isn’t available for anyone to download and study in full. So, since it’s not secret, is it public, or private? Since it’s not published in full but any query of LIMIT 1 is answered, is that open, closed, or other? Restrictions to publication don’t necessarily equate to secrecy, but the best I’ve got is “available upon request”, which isn’t quite right either. Suggestions welcome.

rhaksw 3y ago
Content moderation systems often hide mod actions from the content author [1]. That's a secret. The opposite would be to show the author of the content some indicator that it's been removed, and I would call that transparent or disclosed moderation. Interestingly, your comment first appeared to me as "* * *" with no author [2]. I wonder if that is some kind of ban. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e6BIkKBZpg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e6BIkKBZpg [2] https://i.imgur.com/oGnXc6W.png https://i.imgur.com/oGnXc6W.png edit I know you commented again but it's got that "* * *" thing again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37130675 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37130675 https://archive.is/Eov7z https://archive.is/Eov7z
- altairprime 3y ago
  There’s a protection system in place that can result in that; I don’t have the details at hand (since I’m not associated with HN/YC) but I remember seeing it once before on a highly contentious post, and an email to the mods helped explain/correct whatever was up.
- dang 3y ago
  It's not a ban. It appears when the user has 'delay' in their profile set to N minutes and N minutes haven't elapsed yet. We should probably make this more explicit. Re the 'delay' setting see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html.
  - altairprime 3y ago
    Ah, that makes sense. Thanks!
vasco 3y ago
> Suggestions welcome "This domain is not allowed on HN" as an error message upon submission.
- altairprime 3y ago
  That’s not going to work, because now that’s an API for spammers to bulk process against a domain list. The only available API must be human communication to the mod team, or the spammers will overcome it with automation.
  - dontupvoteme 3y ago
    That's trivial to figure out. It's quite possible the reason the list isn't public is because it would give away information about what thought is allowed and what thought isn't.
    - altairprime 3y ago
      > That’s trivial to figure out. Elaborate.
  - vasco 3y ago
    Spammers can already do that API call and see if the domain shows up. This only puts human users at the same level of consideration as spammer automation.
    - altairprime 3y ago
      Seriously dedicated spammers can, yes! But antispam is about reducing the noise threshold, and eliminating low-effort spam opportunities that can be done to a single HTTP endpoint with a bash script is a big win. Simply having to access two pages is already too much to bother with for the vast majority.
- djur 3y ago
  That encourages switching to another domain for spammy submissions.

predictabl3 3y ago

There's a lot of user hostile moderation practices that occur on this site, manual and automatic. They're not often, or really at all, discussed. Some of them don't work well, and haven't for as long as they've existed.

dang 3y ago
I don't want us to be user hostile. Can you link to some examples?
- johngladtj 3y ago
  I would consider any moderation action that isn't visible to users to be user hostile. If you're going to censor someone, you owe it to them to be honest about what you're doing to them.
  - nunez 3y ago
    If it's visible, it can be worked around. Blame the trolls that prevent us from having nice things.
  - hk__2 3y ago
    Shadow banning is one of the most effective ways to fight spam and harassment. Not being "honest" with spammers and harassers can often be a good thing.
  - DamonHD 3y ago
    You possibly haven't experienced how devious and determined and dishonest and unpleasant some bad actors are, including SPAMmers. (Even when doing the RightThing(TM) would probably be easier...) And, BTW, I occasionally get blocked by the mechanisms here, even though not doing anything bad, but understand that there is a trade-off.
    - johngladtj 3y ago
      I am fully aware of the issue. That's one of the costs with having a public website.

dredmorbius 3y ago

HN operates, based on a number of reasons, on numerous dynamics of friction and nudges. Mostly for the better. I've had my disagreements about things in the past, though as I watch the site and have studied it (particularly over the past few months, see: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36843900 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36843900>) I mostly agree with it. The parts that don't work especially well, most particularly discussion of difficult-but-important topics (in my view) ... have also been acknowledged by its creator pg (Paul Graham) and mods (publicly, dang, though there are a few others). In general: if you submit a story and it doesn't go well, drop a note to the moderators: hn@ycombinator.com. They typically reply within a few hours, perhaps a day or if things are busy or for complex. You can verify that a submission did or didn't go through by checking on the link from an unauthenticated (logged-out) session.

rhaksw 3y ago
> if you submit a story and it doesn't go well, drop a note to the moderators > You can verify that a submission did or didn't go through by checking on the link from an unauthenticated (logged-out) session. Trustful users do not think to do this, and it would not be necessary if the system did not keep the mod action secret.
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  Trustful souls may not. Those who have been advised to do so, through the Guidelines, FAQ, comments, or moderator notes, do, to their advantage. (I'd had a submission shadowbanned as it came from the notoriously flameworthy site LinkedIn a month or few back. I noticed this, emailed the mods, and got that post un-banned. Just to note that the process is in place, and does work.)
  - rhaksw 3y ago
    You don't see the harm of elbowing out trustful people from the public square?
    - 3y ago