4 ms·

And you don't see that as censorship?

by mutant_glofish 3y ago

aaomidi 3y ago
This forum never said they’re a free speech haven.
- dang 3y ago
  That's true, but it's a bit of an interesting question because "free speech" has different meanings. The thing to understand about HN is that we're trying to optimize for one thing: intellectual curiosity (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20optimiz%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...). Given that, we're not "free speech" in the sense of "post anything about anything" - we have to moderate spam, flamewar, lame comments like "ok boomer", etc., because those detract from curious discussion. On the other hand, no single political or ideological position has a monopoly on intellectual curiosity either—so by the same principle, HN can't be moderated for political or ideological position. It's tricky because working this way conflicts with how everyone's mind works. When people see a politically charged post X that they don't like, or when they see a politically charged post Y that they do like, but which we've moderated, it's basically irresistible to jump to the conclusion "the mods are biased". This is because what we see in the first place is conditioned by our preferences - we're more likely to notice and to put weight on things we dislike (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20notice%20dislike&sort=byDate&type=story&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...). People with opposite preferences notice opposite data points and therefore "see" opposite biases. It's the same mechanism either way. In reality, we're just trying to solve an optimization problem: how can you operate a public internet forum to maximize intellectual curiosity? That's basically it. It's not so easy to solve though.
  - aaomidi 3y ago
    I personally think you guys have it mostly figured out. Kudos.
dang 3y ago
The word censorship has so many meanings that I have to ask what you mean by it before I can say whether I see it that way. Is it censorship that the rules of chess say you can't poke someone's queen off the board? We're trying to play a particular game here.
- mutant_glofish 3y ago
  > The word censorship has so many meanings that I have to ask what you mean by it before I can say whether I see it that way. Perhaps its one of those things that are hard to define. [1] But that doesn't mean clear cases don't exist. > Is it censorship that the rules of chess say you can't poke someone's queen off the board? We're trying to play a particular game here. No, but it is clearly political censorship if you only apply the unwritten and secret "rules" of the game to a particular political faction. Also, banning entire domain names is definitely heavy-handed. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
    > political faction I remember some words that succinctly express something I often observe. To paraphrase: > Left-wing and Right-wing are terms which make a lot of people falsely believe that they disagree with each other. It is worth trying to find common ground with people “on the other side”.
  - rhaksw 3y ago
    > censorship if you only apply the unwritten and secret "rules" I mostly agree. I argued in an article [1] that it's only censorship if the author of the content is not told about the action taken against the content. These days though, mods and platforms will generally argue that they're being transparent by telling you that it happens. When it happens is another story altogether that is often not shared. [1] https://www.removednews.com/p/twitters-throttling-of-what-is-a https://www.removednews.com/p/twitters-throttling-of-what-is...
- monkeywork 3y ago
  that is a very interesting way of communicating that point. thank you filing that away :)

And you don't see that as censorship?

aaomidi 3y ago

This forum never said they’re a free speech haven.

dang 3y ago
That's true, but it's a bit of an interesting question because "free speech" has different meanings. The thing to understand about HN is that we're trying to optimize for one thing: intellectual curiosity (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20optimiz%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...). Given that, we're not "free speech" in the sense of "post anything about anything" - we have to moderate spam, flamewar, lame comments like "ok boomer", etc., because those detract from curious discussion. On the other hand, no single political or ideological position has a monopoly on intellectual curiosity either—so by the same principle, HN can't be moderated for political or ideological position. It's tricky because working this way conflicts with how everyone's mind works. When people see a politically charged post X that they don't like, or when they see a politically charged post Y that they do like, but which we've moderated, it's basically irresistible to jump to the conclusion "the mods are biased". This is because what we see in the first place is conditioned by our preferences - we're more likely to notice and to put weight on things we dislike (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20notice%20dislike&sort=byDate&type=story&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...). People with opposite preferences notice opposite data points and therefore "see" opposite biases. It's the same mechanism either way. In reality, we're just trying to solve an optimization problem: how can you operate a public internet forum to maximize intellectual curiosity? That's basically it. It's not so easy to solve though.
- aaomidi 3y ago
  I personally think you guys have it mostly figured out. Kudos.

dang 3y ago

The word censorship has so many meanings that I have to ask what you mean by it before I can say whether I see it that way. Is it censorship that the rules of chess say you can't poke someone's queen off the board? We're trying to play a particular game here.

mutant_glofish 3y ago
> The word censorship has so many meanings that I have to ask what you mean by it before I can say whether I see it that way. Perhaps its one of those things that are hard to define. [1] But that doesn't mean clear cases don't exist. > Is it censorship that the rules of chess say you can't poke someone's queen off the board? We're trying to play a particular game here. No, but it is clearly political censorship if you only apply the unwritten and secret "rules" of the game to a particular political faction. Also, banning entire domain names is definitely heavy-handed. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
  > political faction I remember some words that succinctly express something I often observe. To paraphrase: > Left-wing and Right-wing are terms which make a lot of people falsely believe that they disagree with each other. It is worth trying to find common ground with people “on the other side”.
- rhaksw 3y ago
  > censorship if you only apply the unwritten and secret "rules" I mostly agree. I argued in an article [1] that it's only censorship if the author of the content is not told about the action taken against the content. These days though, mods and platforms will generally argue that they're being transparent by telling you that it happens. When it happens is another story altogether that is often not shared. [1] https://www.removednews.com/p/twitters-throttling-of-what-is-a https://www.removednews.com/p/twitters-throttling-of-what-is...
monkeywork 3y ago
that is a very interesting way of communicating that point. thank you filing that away :)