4 ms·

I always had a very simple way to do student debt forgiveness: 1) Have universities foot the bill, not the tax payer (shocking, I know). A literal refund. 2)

I always had a very simple way to do student debt forgiveness: 1) Have universities foot the bill, not the tax payer (shocking, I know). A literal refund. 2) Institute an audit every 5 years on their price to success rate on a per major basis. Have them refund north of 50% of the tuition if overpriced. Cool, now run your little game. This is literally a consumer protection issue and this industry has hid far too long under the veils of sanctity of “but tis’ but education, maaaaan”. —- Like many have already mentioned, the federal loans going toward these costs are essentially like donating to a charity that you will never get actionable data on. Did the money go to the right place? Did it work? No? Okay, stop donating to that charity, as nice as it feels to be charitable. If a charity doesn’t work, it doesn’t work, doesn’t matter how great it sounds. Even a charity named Education.

sokoloff 3y ago
What does “work” mean in this case? If a student goes to university and gets a degree in medieval French literature and then serves coffee for life as a job, the university did its job iff the student demonstrated a level of mastery of medieval French literature. The inadvertent economics education that came later was not the university’s doing and they take no credit nor blame for it.
- musicale 3y ago
  > What does “work” mean in this case? That the money was spent responsibly, for some definition of responsibly. Probably this doesn't mean the sort of abuses detailed in the article. > If a student goes to university and gets a degree in medieval French literature and then serves coffee for life as a job, the university did its job iff the student demonstrated a level of mastery of medieval French literature. I'm unconvinced that it would be good to disband humanities departments, or to ban non-STEM degree programs and/or degrees that don't involve training for a specific career path. Last I checked, even MIT has a humanities school (though it seems to be combined with art and social sciences.) Our society seems to have enough react programmers and could probably use more medievalists, as well as other humanities grads - people who understand the human condition, have some sense and understanding of history, know how to exercise critical thinking skills, and can read and write well. These are skills that could serve someone well in a variety of jobs. [Moreover, as more jobs (including supposedly highly skilled tech jobs) are automated out of existence, many of us are likely to end up in low-paying service jobs - at least until the robots take those as well.]
- lsmeducation 3y ago
  Okay, that’s a great point. So we’ll have to change the definition of “success” from whatever the definition these institutions have been using this whole time. Our government nearly tried to pass a $500 billion dollar refund for these universities idea of what it means to market itself as “an investment for your future”. Again, this is a consumer affairs issue. These universities are doing false advertising, period.
  - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
    If you want to optimize for student ROI, then you end up with vocational schools, and a population of zombie workers educated in the absolute bare minimum necessary for them to do their jobs. There is substantial value in having a broadly educated populace, especially if you're going to let everyone have a say in governance.
    - lsmeducation 3y ago
      System failed a long time ago. No point in having this discussion. Adjust the prices, and stop marketing it as a future. At scale this has been a failure through and through. Shoutout out the ultimate technical school of all, MIT. How? Who knows. Guess they know the right people. ——- From my own experience, I will add that educational requirements are almost financial. You need it to be free, educationally. The same way you need money to be free. But back on point, don’t add swindlers collecting a check on that trek, certainly not on loan, certainly not beyond affordability. —— You make this money and you are free to spend how you spend. You learn this, and you are free to learn how you learn. Psychosocial.

sokoloff 3y ago

What does “work” mean in this case? If a student goes to university and gets a degree in medieval French literature and then serves coffee for life as a job, the university did its job iff the student demonstrated a level of mastery of medieval French literature. The inadvertent economics education that came later was not the university’s doing and they take no credit nor blame for it.

musicale 3y ago
> What does “work” mean in this case? That the money was spent responsibly, for some definition of responsibly. Probably this doesn't mean the sort of abuses detailed in the article. > If a student goes to university and gets a degree in medieval French literature and then serves coffee for life as a job, the university did its job iff the student demonstrated a level of mastery of medieval French literature. I'm unconvinced that it would be good to disband humanities departments, or to ban non-STEM degree programs and/or degrees that don't involve training for a specific career path. Last I checked, even MIT has a humanities school (though it seems to be combined with art and social sciences.) Our society seems to have enough react programmers and could probably use more medievalists, as well as other humanities grads - people who understand the human condition, have some sense and understanding of history, know how to exercise critical thinking skills, and can read and write well. These are skills that could serve someone well in a variety of jobs. [Moreover, as more jobs (including supposedly highly skilled tech jobs) are automated out of existence, many of us are likely to end up in low-paying service jobs - at least until the robots take those as well.]
lsmeducation 3y ago
Okay, that’s a great point. So we’ll have to change the definition of “success” from whatever the definition these institutions have been using this whole time. Our government nearly tried to pass a $500 billion dollar refund for these universities idea of what it means to market itself as “an investment for your future”. Again, this is a consumer affairs issue. These universities are doing false advertising, period.
- OkayPhysicist 3y ago
  If you want to optimize for student ROI, then you end up with vocational schools, and a population of zombie workers educated in the absolute bare minimum necessary for them to do their jobs. There is substantial value in having a broadly educated populace, especially if you're going to let everyone have a say in governance.
  - lsmeducation 3y ago
    System failed a long time ago. No point in having this discussion. Adjust the prices, and stop marketing it as a future. At scale this has been a failure through and through. Shoutout out the ultimate technical school of all, MIT. How? Who knows. Guess they know the right people. ——- From my own experience, I will add that educational requirements are almost financial. You need it to be free, educationally. The same way you need money to be free. But back on point, don’t add swindlers collecting a check on that trek, certainly not on loan, certainly not beyond affordability. —— You make this money and you are free to spend how you spend. You learn this, and you are free to learn how you learn. Psychosocial.