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> The way this particular segment of Russian society reacted to the crash and the murder was an ugly reflection of a national tendency to blame whoever happens

by csours 3y ago

> The way this particular segment of Russian society reacted to the crash and the murder was an ugly reflection of a national tendency to blame whoever happens to be present at the moment of a tragedy, while those responsible for creating the unsafe condition go unnamed and unpunished. Severe Tangent: It's difficult to change the way you perceive the world, but I invite you to try. Lately I've been thinking about how we understand and talk about tragedies and atrocities in history. Atrocities are traced back to who is most to blame, but not the conditions that led to the situation, not the political techniques that were used to gain the power, and certainly not how it might apply to ourselves. When we find someone to blame for evil acts, we can close that mental box. That was the person who did it; I would never do something like that; I would never support someone like that. But, most of the time, the evil leader did not start their reign with huge atrocities. It may have started with a fight that many of their followers did support. It's easy to say "I would never support an atrocity", and maybe even say "I would never support someone who talks about any group as less than human". The problem is, it's always easier to see this in your opponents than in yourself. I'm not making a false equivalence or an excuse; I'm saying it's really difficult and we should not be surprised when it is difficult. When the group mentality gets to a certain point, any reasonable nudge or criticism is taken as an attack. I don't know of a great solution, but I think about how cult members are de-programmed. They have to remember or find something in the real world that they value. There has to be a bridge, not a demand that they renounce their beliefs.

olliej 3y ago
Literally the whole point of NTSB and similar investigations is to find the cause of accidents, and this article is almost entirely sourced from those reports. The person who decided I must blame someone, decided to murder the controller (that the report did not blame) and be celebrated as a hero by a bunch of moronic "manliness" "strong men" in Russia. This BS concept of "manliness" and "being strong" == "being better" needs to be stopped, and it's frustrating to see so much revival and promotion for it on YouTube and the like.
- mbork_pl 3y ago
  On the contrary, the concept of "manliness" and "being strong" (which does not necessarily mean "better", btw) needs to be promoted more - but also understood correctly, as the ability to conquer your own weaknesses, like the one GP is talking about. It is sad to see how our civilization collectively decided to throw out several thousands years of tradition and dozen of thousands pages of collective wisdom. The topic GP mentioned has been known for centuries, way before modern psychology. In fact, it is one of the important points of Catholicism (AFAIU) - every single man is a sinner capable of horrible deeds, but that diminishes neither the dignity of every human being nor their ability (with God's grace) of overcoming that.
banannaise 3y ago
I also found that quote very odd, for similar reasons. My immediate question was: Why is this treated as a specifically Russian tendency? The mindset sounds intimately familiar to me as an American. Many people, perhaps even most, operate on that idea. Our politics are heavily dependent on that idea. It also heavily underpins our justice system.
- _Tev 3y ago
  > Why is this treated as a specifically Russian tendency? Would an American (or any person in any country in the EU) receive a medal for such murder? I expect not, and would be horrified otherwise ... But I don't think it's unique for Russia, they just get much more spotlight.
- csours 3y ago
  > Why is this treated as a specifically Russian tendency? Because everyone in that part of Russia understand and feels that honor-based reaction. The Southern US also has a history and reputation of honor-based communities. The difference is that in the US, most people do not think this way, and there is a cultural tendency towards accepting and understanding differences with your neighbors, or at least signaling such. --- I think that honor based societies do not do a good job at understanding change. The problem is that the opposite of honor is guilt/shame, and that emotional reaction heavily masks the facts of the situation. It may be a difficult and foreign concept (It's difficult for me), but reading about guilt-free organizations is very interesting to me. The thing that was hardest for me was understanding that guilt and responsibility are different things.

by csours 3y ago

olliej 3y ago

Literally the whole point of NTSB and similar investigations is to find the cause of accidents, and this article is almost entirely sourced from those reports. The person who decided I must blame someone, decided to murder the controller (that the report did not blame) and be celebrated as a hero by a bunch of moronic "manliness" "strong men" in Russia. This BS concept of "manliness" and "being strong" == "being better" needs to be stopped, and it's frustrating to see so much revival and promotion for it on YouTube and the like.

mbork_pl 3y ago
On the contrary, the concept of "manliness" and "being strong" (which does not necessarily mean "better", btw) needs to be promoted more - but also understood correctly, as the ability to conquer your own weaknesses, like the one GP is talking about. It is sad to see how our civilization collectively decided to throw out several thousands years of tradition and dozen of thousands pages of collective wisdom. The topic GP mentioned has been known for centuries, way before modern psychology. In fact, it is one of the important points of Catholicism (AFAIU) - every single man is a sinner capable of horrible deeds, but that diminishes neither the dignity of every human being nor their ability (with God's grace) of overcoming that.

banannaise 3y ago

I also found that quote very odd, for similar reasons. My immediate question was: Why is this treated as a specifically Russian tendency? The mindset sounds intimately familiar to me as an American. Many people, perhaps even most, operate on that idea. Our politics are heavily dependent on that idea. It also heavily underpins our justice system.

_Tev 3y ago
> Why is this treated as a specifically Russian tendency? Would an American (or any person in any country in the EU) receive a medal for such murder? I expect not, and would be horrified otherwise ... But I don't think it's unique for Russia, they just get much more spotlight.
csours 3y ago
> Why is this treated as a specifically Russian tendency? Because everyone in that part of Russia understand and feels that honor-based reaction. The Southern US also has a history and reputation of honor-based communities. The difference is that in the US, most people do not think this way, and there is a cultural tendency towards accepting and understanding differences with your neighbors, or at least signaling such. --- I think that honor based societies do not do a good job at understanding change. The problem is that the opposite of honor is guilt/shame, and that emotional reaction heavily masks the facts of the situation. It may be a difficult and foreign concept (It's difficult for me), but reading about guilt-free organizations is very interesting to me. The thing that was hardest for me was understanding that guilt and responsibility are different things.