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Imagine doing this in a country where there are actual labor laws like France.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
deaddodo 3y ago
Many companies in France did exactly this after COVID guidelines ended: https://www.simmons-simmons.com/en/publications/ckgch7tn6a09k0930ybnw0v87/update-on-health-protocol-in-france https://www.simmons-simmons.com/en/publications/ckgch7tn6a09... In fact, French labor law is quite archaic on remote work ("telework"), so it's odd that they you chose them, of all "progressive" countries, as your comparison point. Additionally, those same engineers would, statistically, be earning ~33-50% (before tax) what they do now, if they were in France. I always find it odd when people disfavorably compare STEM fields in NA to the EU; as they're the few fields the US/Canada are almost undoubtedly better to work in (there's exceptions, of course).
- aaomidi 3y ago
  Did you read the link you’re referencing? Employers just set the terms and conditions of how remote working is organised, within the framework of social dialogue (ie with employee representatives). The guidelines remind employers that they must ensure collective links are maintained within the company and prevent the risks linked to the isolation of employees working remotely. There’s a difference between it’s no longer required to require remote and forced RTO.
  - deaddodo 3y ago
    Yes, now go read the labor law on "telework" provisions. Combine those two contexts, and you have a full story. One of France not, in any way, being a paragon of "remote work" ideals. To make it opaque for you: remote work provisions were required because French labor law defaults to employees not only being in the office, but that being the preferred status. OP could have, instead, used a genuinely remote-friendly nation, like Norway or Sweden, if they knew what they were talking about. But they didn't, which is the point; instead posting an ignorant and biased kneejerk response.
- egoregorov 3y ago
  Have had coworkers in USA and Ukraine. I didn't notice a difference
  - deaddodo 3y ago
    I don't understand which portion of my post you're trying to argue against? You, yourself, posted the following yesterday: > I made 22kUSD last year in Kiev. I think my colleague on same team in USA was making 65kUSD. Not SWE, just comparing numbers. I was also paid more than the average for my position/geography. Which seems to reinforce my point, if anything? Since the rest has to do with France, specifically.
    - egoregorov 3y ago
      My fault, I misread the last sentence of your post. I thought you were comparing skill set
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
- CountVonGuetzli 3y ago
  Not sure where you’re getting your information from, but I feel like the opposite is true. If you want to work remotely, they even have a remote working contract specifically designed for that case. Maybe what looks archaic to you is that under French labor law, employees can’t be treated differently if they have the same type of contract. Meaning one individual can’t work two days from home and another three. Or one person can’t just have their travel expenses to and from the office payed, unless all employees with the same contract have that too. I believe this is why they had to introduce the new contract for remote work. With this, their strong worker protections stay in tact while still allowing for more modern ways of working. What is archaic is their bloody governmental control system. There is an inspector for every stupid thing you can imagine and it is an enormous waste if time and money.
pyrrhotech 3y ago
Imagine having the economic performance of France vs. the United States https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=FR-US https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?location...
- stemlord 3y ago
  Why should Americans care about "economic performance" when they are seeing little benefit of it. The .1% etc.
- ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
  Imagine having the overall quality of life of France vs. the United States

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Many companies in France did exactly this after COVID guidelines ended: https://www.simmons-simmons.com/en/publications/ckgch7tn6a09k0930ybnw0v87/update-on-health-protocol-in-france https://www.simmons-simmons.com/en/publications/ckgch7tn6a09... In fact, French labor law is quite archaic on remote work ("telework"), so it's odd that they you chose them, of all "progressive" countries, as your comparison point. Additionally, those same engineers would, statistically, be earning ~33-50% (before tax) what they do now, if they were in France. I always find it odd when people disfavorably compare STEM fields in NA to the EU; as they're the few fields the US/Canada are almost undoubtedly better to work in (there's exceptions, of course).

aaomidi 3y ago
Did you read the link you’re referencing? Employers just set the terms and conditions of how remote working is organised, within the framework of social dialogue (ie with employee representatives). The guidelines remind employers that they must ensure collective links are maintained within the company and prevent the risks linked to the isolation of employees working remotely. There’s a difference between it’s no longer required to require remote and forced RTO.
- deaddodo 3y ago
  Yes, now go read the labor law on "telework" provisions. Combine those two contexts, and you have a full story. One of France not, in any way, being a paragon of "remote work" ideals. To make it opaque for you: remote work provisions were required because French labor law defaults to employees not only being in the office, but that being the preferred status. OP could have, instead, used a genuinely remote-friendly nation, like Norway or Sweden, if they knew what they were talking about. But they didn't, which is the point; instead posting an ignorant and biased kneejerk response.
egoregorov 3y ago
Have had coworkers in USA and Ukraine. I didn't notice a difference
- deaddodo 3y ago
  I don't understand which portion of my post you're trying to argue against? You, yourself, posted the following yesterday: > I made 22kUSD last year in Kiev. I think my colleague on same team in USA was making 65kUSD. Not SWE, just comparing numbers. I was also paid more than the average for my position/geography. Which seems to reinforce my point, if anything? Since the rest has to do with France, specifically.
  - egoregorov 3y ago
    My fault, I misread the last sentence of your post. I thought you were comparing skill set
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
CountVonGuetzli 3y ago
Not sure where you’re getting your information from, but I feel like the opposite is true. If you want to work remotely, they even have a remote working contract specifically designed for that case. Maybe what looks archaic to you is that under French labor law, employees can’t be treated differently if they have the same type of contract. Meaning one individual can’t work two days from home and another three. Or one person can’t just have their travel expenses to and from the office payed, unless all employees with the same contract have that too. I believe this is why they had to introduce the new contract for remote work. With this, their strong worker protections stay in tact while still allowing for more modern ways of working. What is archaic is their bloody governmental control system. There is an inspector for every stupid thing you can imagine and it is an enormous waste if time and money.

pyrrhotech 3y ago

Imagine having the economic performance of France vs. the United States https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=FR-US https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?location...

stemlord 3y ago
Why should Americans care about "economic performance" when they are seeing little benefit of it. The .1% etc.
ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
Imagine having the overall quality of life of France vs. the United States