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Grindr employees have 2 weeks: agree to move across the country+RTO or lose jobs
- graypegg 3y agoCorrect me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t this be a great time to try out the power of the union? It sounds like while they haven’t been recognized, they do have members. I wonder if they’re considering any collective action.
- olliej 3y agoAs far as I can make out, in the US a group of employees wanting to act together in any union or union-adjacent form cannot do so until after the union has been formally voted on and agreed to. 50/50 there are time-limit rules that make formally unionizing inside two weeks impossible. [edit: from multiple law firms websites it sounds like you don't need a union to strike, but the process of striking is also not as simple as just not working. That's important, you can be fired/punished for not working, but not for striking, so if you are serious you should talk to an attorney (this is something your union would help you with if you had one)]
- flangola7 3y ago> As far as I can make out, in the US a group of employees wanting to act together in any union or union-adjacent form cannot do so until after the union has been formally voted on and agreed to. There is nothing to stop you and your colleagues from simply declining to log in until the company's attitude improves. They can threaten to fire you, but they were already playing that card, and they can't sail a ship if they kick all the sailors out.
- olliej 3y agoYou cannot be fired for going on strike, and an employer is required to reinstate you post-strike unless they have a "bonafide replacement" (e.g. they can't have hired a contractor, and afaict if the position reopens [presumably with limits?] they're required to offer it to you). Simply stopping work doesn't count, it sounds like you have to go through a formal process of notice, including collective demands, and an agreement to return to work following agreement or a good faith negotiated contract. Of course the benefit of unions is that they have experience in ensuring a strike is legal, and providing legal assistance - in some cases unions can provide financial support for strikers (otherwise you trivially get to a "I just hold out until they lose their homes/children starve" state where strikes are irrelevant) From various legal firms it _sounds_ like you don't need a union to strike, but your strike still needs to be legal (there are illegal strikes). Of course it goes without saying, but I am not a lawyer, and am just going from the NLRB site and various law firms websites (on both worker and employer sides).
- olliej 3y agoI really do not understand these downvotes. Grindr is a US company, even if it weren't the employees in question are in the US, so subject to US employment law, which is what my comment revolves around. The NLRB site explicitly states that striking is a legal action employees can take ('“Employees shall have the right. . . to engage in other concerted activities for the purpose of collective bargaining or other mutual aid or protection.” Strikes are included among the concerted activities protected for employees by this section. Section 13 also concerns the right to strike'[1], 'Employees at union and non-union workplaces have the right to help each other'[2]) The NLRB site explicitly states that firing an employee due to them striking is illegal ('You cannot be fired for participating in a protected strike or picketing, depending on the purposes and means of the strike action.'[3]) The NLRB site, and numerous law firms (on both sides) seem to say that you can't just "not work", there is some formal process. If you want to go on strike you should talk to either an employment attorney, or your union if you're in one. I am genuinely curious, if you're down voting my comment, I'd love to know why. [1] https://www.nlrb.gov/strikes https://www.nlrb.gov/strikes [2] https://www.nlrb.gov/resources/faq/nlrb https://www.nlrb.gov/resources/faq/nlrb [3] https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/employees/right-to-strike-and-picket https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/em...
- kwk1 3y agoI didn't downvote, but I do see an issue that could be the cause: the statement "you can't be fired for going on strike" misses the essential difference of the law as written versus the law as enforced, ignoring the messy reality of power and who wields it. If you're fired for striking or other protected activity, you can pursue legal recourse; hopefully you can still meet needs for food, shelter, medicine, etc. This may as well be on another planet from "cannot".
- johnnyanmac 3y ago>the statement "you can't be fired for going on strike" misses the essential difference of the law as written versus the law as enforced strikes are pretty effective, that's why the devil in the details isn't trying to go around a strike. It's to either rule a strike a illegal, or try and prevent a union from forming to begin with. I see that statement as pretty much true... once you can establish the union. And I see it as a proper response to "well you don't need a union to strike". Of course no one can make you work if you stop going to work, and you can't be arrested for refusing to work unless you are military (AWOL) or very specific, specialized professions. But that misses the point of a union.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago>There is nothing to stop you and your colleagues from simply declining to log in until the company's attitude improves. They can threaten to fire you, but they were already playing that card the idea behind a Union is that they can't retaliate agaisnt you once you formally announce a legal strike. It's a term written in a contract that the company agrees to. Breaking it is the same as any other contract breech, which should have enough sanctions to make it the worst option. That's how congress ruled those railroad strikes as "illegal". When they do that you can still "technically" strike, but you're no longer being paid and/or are at risk of being fired. Maybe that still is an avenue to look into, but many cannot take that risk.
- justinclift 3y agoDoesn't the US have some kind of government level (labour?) review board, which would generally be expected to get involved about here? It seems like a "union busting" type of tactic, of the "get in early" kind. ;)
- steveklabnik 3y agoYes, the National Labor Relations Board. You can file with them, and they'll get involved. I haven't seen a public statement that the employees here have done that yet, but I can't imagine that they will not end up doing so.
- tssva 3y agoFrom the article. "The CWA has also filed a complaint with the National Labor Relations Board as a result of the return to office order, arguing that it is retaliation against union organizing."
- steveklabnik 3y agoAh, I missed that, thank you!
- 5555624 3y agoSome employees believe the move may be in retaliation for trying to form a union. Per the article, "The news comes two weeks after employees announced their effort to unionize under the Communications Workers of America, Grindr United. Grindr United posted Sunday that the pivot to in-person work by the company is a "bizarre coincidence." Of course, Grindr says it had nothing to do with the attempts to unionize.
- graypegg 3y agoI guess my thinking is just that the company has given the union a really good “first issue” for the union to tackle. If you just signed up to unionize, and then you get told you’re going to get fired unless you move, why would you not try out collective action? Even if they threaten firing people for participating in some sort of collective action, you were already going to get fired.
- TeaDrunk 3y agoThe time to "try out" a union was the height of the pandemic when the demand for developer labor was at its highest.
- henry2023 3y agoThe best time to unionize was 5 years ago. The second best time is today.
- flir 3y agoHey! Who put this tree here?
- s1artibartfast 3y agoIt's tough though because during high demand employees have leverage but employee incentives are very misaligned. People are getting big offers and raises so some don't necessarily need or want the Union.
- graypegg 3y agoI don’t know if that means that now is a bad time to unionize though. There was more leverage before obviously, but considering they’re threatening to fire you anyway, I think it’s a pretty solid opportunity. Though, I have no idea how unions work in the states. It sounds like they may be somehow barred from any collective action somehow?
- johnnyanmac 3y agoWho's gonna try it out? the potential union leader who just left for a 30% raise?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- insidesrc123 3y ago[dead]
- steveklabnik 3y agoThe union doesn't exist yet, so you can't really "try it out." This action by Grindr does seem like a direct response to the attempt to form the union, though. full timeline here: https://twitter.com/GrindrUnited/status/1687803784251031552 https://twitter.com/GrindrUnited/status/1687803784251031552
- ada1981 3y ago[flagged]
- Raed667 3y agoImagine doing this in a country where there are actual labor laws like France.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- deaddodo 3y agoMany companies in France did exactly this after COVID guidelines ended: https://www.simmons-simmons.com/en/publications/ckgch7tn6a09k0930ybnw0v87/update-on-health-protocol-in-france https://www.simmons-simmons.com/en/publications/ckgch7tn6a09... In fact, French labor law is quite archaic on remote work ("telework"), so it's odd that they you chose them, of all "progressive" countries, as your comparison point. Additionally, those same engineers would, statistically, be earning ~33-50% (before tax) what they do now, if they were in France. I always find it odd when people disfavorably compare STEM fields in NA to the EU; as they're the few fields the US/Canada are almost undoubtedly better to work in (there's exceptions, of course).
- aaomidi 3y agoDid you read the link you’re referencing? Employers just set the terms and conditions of how remote working is organised, within the framework of social dialogue (ie with employee representatives). The guidelines remind employers that they must ensure collective links are maintained within the company and prevent the risks linked to the isolation of employees working remotely. There’s a difference between it’s no longer required to require remote and forced RTO.
- deaddodo 3y agoYes, now go read the labor law on "telework" provisions. Combine those two contexts, and you have a full story. One of France not, in any way, being a paragon of "remote work" ideals. To make it opaque for you: remote work provisions were required because French labor law defaults to employees not only being in the office, but that being the preferred status. OP could have, instead, used a genuinely remote-friendly nation, like Norway or Sweden, if they knew what they were talking about. But they didn't, which is the point; instead posting an ignorant and biased kneejerk response.
- CamelCaseName 3y agoTitle is incorrect. Two weeks to decide if they can move, with RTO work starting in October. Still bad, but not terrible.
- TeaDrunk 3y agoNo, I think it is terrible. Is Grindr paying for the relocation? The cost of traveling to scope out apartments? Assuming people purchased property in LCOL places, October is barely any time to get a house ready to sell + actually go through the sale process to closing. Is Grindr paying for that? Is Grindr upping up pay equal to the difference of the cost of living differences?
- johnnyanmac 3y agoNeither side has said anything in that regard. Proably need to browse Blind and try and piece together what was actually said in the all-hands.
- jwestbury 3y agoCan't remember the exact figure, but a former teammate just started there, and the purported relo package is much lower than actual expenses.
- egoregorov 3y agowhat does the dosimeter say?
- stuaxo 3y agoFor anyone that is a parent, this is way too short a timeline.
- Jcowell 3y agoEspecially so since school is just now starting for many m
- hn_throwaway_99 3y agoWhether security issues from a disgruntled employee, or from the fact that good employees quit because they can find better terms at a different job - probably time for me to delete those ass pics.
- coldtea 3y agoThey should just quit altogether, and leave only people who can't get a new job working for Grindr.
- heavyset_go 3y agoLayoff without calling it a layoff.
- Someone1234 3y agoJust like all return-to-work mandates.
- joot82 3y agogreat idea to mandate back to office when a new COVID mutation is surging around the world, including rise in hospitalizations... /s
- soupfordummies 3y agoPeople have been knowingly coming to work sick at my office now sadly. Same as it was pre pandemic. Thankfully I’m not required to go in. Very thankfully.
- xwdv 3y agoSome have no choice but to take it on the chin.
- s1artibartfast 3y agoactual title: >Grindr employees working from home were given 2 weeks to decide to move across the country to work in person or lose their jobs
- subarctic 3y agoCurrent title on HN is >Grindr employees have 2 weeks to move across the country, RTO or lose their jobs I'm not sure I see the difference. Has the HN title changed since your comment? EDIT: Oh, I get it. They don't have to move right away, but they have to decide now and then move in October.
- s1artibartfast 3y agoyeah, confirming your intent is to move is radically different than being told to be living in a new location within 2 weeks
- troebr 3y agoRealistically, you'd either agree and start planning your move, or pretend to agree and plan your move to a new job.
- s1artibartfast 3y agoAgreeing to move and then not following through seems like an fast track to go from constructive dismissal with severance/unempoyment to fired with cause. the pro/cons also depend a lot like the timelines for dismissal.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- bravetraveler 3y agoA rough proposition all the same! I don't think I've organized/completed a move in less than a month. Great, they've been given the time to do it - if they decide to. It's still a tire fire placed in your lap I'd find something new, absolutely no way I'd wear this leash
- _moof 3y agoHas anyone tested whether losing a job this way is legally considered "not at fault" for purposes of unemployment benefits? (Obviously this may vary by state.)
- cplusplusfellow 3y agoIANAL, but this seems like a material change of employment arrangement.
- scarface_74 3y agoWhich is a grand total of a maximum of $275/week in my state.
- gymbeaux 3y agoFlorida! Yeah I can’t even pay the mortgage with Florida’s unemployment. They like us poor and stupid. Meanwhile my homeowner’s insurance goes up each year even though my area hasn’t been hit by a hurricane. Fun fact, Jacksonville FL gets fewer direct strikes from hurricanes than New Jersey.
- scarface_74 3y agoYou guessed it. But on the other hand. I did save around $1000 a month by not having to pay state taxes… Tech workers who think unemployment is going to be a savior or even a trickle in their budget if they are unemployed are going to be very disappointed
- jimbob45 3y agoOriginal article is this one[0] and includes the actual memo. Can we please swap the URL? [0]https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjv3gm/grindr-tells-unionizing-workers-move-across-the-country-or-be-fired https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjv3gm/grindr-tells-unionizi...
- treldorian 3y agoThat discussion is here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37057672 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37057672
- infamouscow 3y agoIt's going to be downright pornographic when this backfires in the most hilarious way possible.
- treldorian 3y agoThe headline was exceeding the character limit so that’s why it was edited and shortened.
- s1artibartfast 3y agoThere are many alternative is that are both accurate and shorter
- treldorian 3y agoUpdated again. Does this revision make more sense?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- vijaybritto 3y agoWhat happens to employees who got kids? They have change school in 2 weeks too?
- s1artibartfast 3y agoThey end up in a difficult situation because they ignored earlier RTO announcements
- 12907835202 3y agoI'm always amazed how many employees some of these apps, that seem simple, have. Grindr has 273. And apparently Tinder has 809. How??? I imagine two devs could maintain the app. I've certainly managed more complex apps myself. Perhaps the algorithm is infact incredible (I doubt it?) and requires a large team of data scientists, developers and sys admins. There is of course people to deal with spam protection and abuse. But then what? Is the rest all marketing and ads sales?
- TRiG_Ireland 3y agoalgorithm? Who's closest and not blocked. That's the algorithm.
- vinni2 3y agoI imagine two devs could maintain the app. What about backend and database etc? it’s not that simple app
- guessmyname 3y ago> I imagine two devs could maintain the app. I've certainly managed more complex apps myself. Do you believe that only developers are employed at the company? Having 273 employees seems like a reasonable number to handle tasks such as development, marketing, and ensuring the overall success of a legitimate business. Consider roles like executives, lawyers, accountants, human resources personnel, payroll administrators, marketing and sales professionals, customer service, designers, web developers, database administrators, development operations experts, and cloud infrastructure specialists. Additionally, there would be managers overseeing various teams dedicated to different features, working to retain existing customers and attract new ones each quarter. If you find the idea of 273 individuals handling all these responsibilities unreasonable, I’m genuinely interested in hearing how you would envision the organizational structure for such a company.
- leetcrew 3y agoit seems like a lot to me too. I use to work at a company about that size with a far more complicated product (professional design software with thousands of dialogs, render pipeline, etc). of course, we did not have so many customers.
- Traubenfuchs 3y agoI can not overstate how bad and buggy grindr is despite it‘s insane price for very basic features. Even with a subscription you constantly get nagged with micro transaction shit (e.g. put your profile in front of others for a short while on the distance based gris)
- stemlord 3y agoScruff isn't too buggy but also insanely priced for basic features. Very gameified, "pay more to interact with better men". It's practically extortion considering a substantial chunk of the gay male population no longer go to bars to find dates anymore because of the apps to begin with. Another big tech bait & switch
- foogazi 3y agoAlways reminds me of this: https://youtu.be/qGC9FY65HBo https://youtu.be/qGC9FY65HBo - “A Level of Fuck You”, John Goodman, The Gambler
- biogene 3y agoOn a general note, this is a golden opportunity to snatch up all the talented people who want to WFH. But the WFH debate has shown that very few people want to put their money where their mouths are.
- jillesvangurp 3y agoWe're still in a market with record low levels of unemployment. So, those people will be fine and will find other jobs valued at what they are worth (which might be less than they imagine though). I think what's going to happen slowly over the next few years is that we are going back to more normal levels of unemployment. Which will lead to the usual competitiveness in the workplace and more opportunities for those who actually do show up in the office. And also a weakened negotiation position when applying for a job if you are looking to work remote. If there are other candidates willing to come to the office, you might miss out if you insist that you shouldn't.
- biogene 3y agoYes, I agree - This remote-work push-pull will be continuous based on who has the leverage at any given time. I exited the industry many years back, but I would not want to be a remote-only worker in a high income country competing with the global talent pool.
- archo 3y agohttps://archive.is/oYhWC https://archive.is/oYhWC
- taylodl 3y agoMaybe HN should keep a blacklist for companies that are bad actors. We'd have to work out the details, but it could be useful.