4 ms·

As other languages that run on existing environments most likely have done. C#, F#, Clojure, TypeScript, Swift, and many others probably had to take similar con

As other languages that run on existing environments most likely have done. C#, F#, Clojure, TypeScript, Swift, and many others probably had to take similar considerations. Then at a lower level, if you want to maintain ABI compatibility, that may also impose restrictions. Much of the software we write needs to deal with the constraints of its environments. It would be unfortunate if we decide to give all of them the uncharitable description of being defined by "dubious design choices for the innards" even when known well-defined patterns surface from designing within constraints.

ajkjk 3y ago
It would be unfortunate if we were unwilling to call design choices dubious and learning from past mistakes instead of rationalizing why they're actually fine. I don't know Elixir but you're telling me in 2023 I'm supposed to learn that a language calls anonymous functions with a different syntax than regular ones and not be annoyed? Like.. that just sucks. If you have to do it that way for unfixable reasons, at least deliver the bad news with an apology instead of a white lie about why it makes perfect sense.
- josevalim 3y ago
  I am completely fine with calling past dubious design choices. This isn't one of them. That was your labeling, provided with no evidence or reasoning, not mine, and that's what I was criticizing. The Lisp-1 and Lisp-2 discussion is several decades old, with many discussions arguing the benefits of one over the other. The article highlights some of those trade-offs, which should be clear if someone is willing to get past superficial syntax notes. However, given how intent you are on putting words in my mouth and on distorting contrasting opinions as white lies, let's call it a day.
  - ajkjk 3y ago
    Ah, I didn't mean to say your take was a white lie. The white lie I referred to was the implicit claim in the article, that it had to be this way, instead of that it's correcting something unfortunate.
  - ralphc 3y ago
    This reminds me of when Paul Graham asked a question about Python and someone said they weren't going to do their homework for them.
- sandbags 3y ago
  As a developer who came to Elixir from Clojure I had the same reaction to fun.(), “this sucks”. Then someone explained why. So, okay, there is a good reason but “bleh.” I think that lasted maybe a day, by which time I had accepted it as part of the language. It’s just not a big deal when the language offers so much in return. And I liked Clojure.

ajkjk 3y ago

It would be unfortunate if we were unwilling to call design choices dubious and learning from past mistakes instead of rationalizing why they're actually fine. I don't know Elixir but you're telling me in 2023 I'm supposed to learn that a language calls anonymous functions with a different syntax than regular ones and not be annoyed? Like.. that just sucks. If you have to do it that way for unfixable reasons, at least deliver the bad news with an apology instead of a white lie about why it makes perfect sense.

josevalim 3y ago
I am completely fine with calling past dubious design choices. This isn't one of them. That was your labeling, provided with no evidence or reasoning, not mine, and that's what I was criticizing. The Lisp-1 and Lisp-2 discussion is several decades old, with many discussions arguing the benefits of one over the other. The article highlights some of those trade-offs, which should be clear if someone is willing to get past superficial syntax notes. However, given how intent you are on putting words in my mouth and on distorting contrasting opinions as white lies, let's call it a day.
- ajkjk 3y ago
  Ah, I didn't mean to say your take was a white lie. The white lie I referred to was the implicit claim in the article, that it had to be this way, instead of that it's correcting something unfortunate.
- ralphc 3y ago
  This reminds me of when Paul Graham asked a question about Python and someone said they weren't going to do their homework for them.
sandbags 3y ago
As a developer who came to Elixir from Clojure I had the same reaction to fun.(), “this sucks”. Then someone explained why. So, okay, there is a good reason but “bleh.” I think that lasted maybe a day, by which time I had accepted it as part of the language. It’s just not a big deal when the language offers so much in return. And I liked Clojure.