20 ms·

The Unwelcome Mat - How Not to Attract Tourists

389 points by fuzzix 15y ago

yequalsx 15y ago
I'm a white middle class U.S. citizen. The only country's borders that I get nervous crossing are America's. I've gotten harassed quite a few times. I'm at the point where I wonder if I'm on a watch list. Last time I was in Germany for 3 months before flying back to the U.S. Questions I was asked in an unfriendly, brusque manner: Why were you gone so long? Don't you work? What do you do for a living? Why would your employer let you be gone so long? Why did you pay so much for that? I wish foreigners would stop visiting the U.S. Maybe then we would change our policies.
- phatbyte 15y ago
  It's already happening in some way, lots of people I know refuse to travel to US because of so many horror border stories. In Europe everything is so much simpler. If you are inside UE all you need to show is your ID card and your are set. Why doesn't US do the same thing with european countries at least ? Same thing for working VISA, we are the good-old-europe for god sake :P not a quarantine zone
  - vidarh 15y ago
    > In Europe everything is so much simpler. If you are inside UE all you need to show is your ID card and your are set. If you are inside the Schengen area, you only need to show your id card. Go to/from the UK, and you still need your passport. Traveling between Schengen countries is more comparable to traveling between US states than from Europe to US or reverse, because the whole point of Schengen is a common system for protecting the "outer" borders.
    - rcj 15y ago
      A German id card is enough to enter/leave the UK. No passport required. I would assume the same holds for other european id cards.
      - Sharlin 15y ago
        It holds for many European countries. The United Kingdom has separate passport-free travel agreements with most, but not all, Schengen countries (and with some non-Schengen countries as well.)
    - phatbyte 15y ago
      No true, I travel to the UK very often and I only show my ID, which works as a passport inside EU countries.
      - deleted 15y ago
        [deleted]
    - merijnv 15y ago
      To be fair, my travel outside of the Schengen has still been a lot more pleasant than the way the US border is described...
    - john_flintstone 15y ago
      Not if you're travelling from Ireland. You don't need to show any ID - though technically, if you're not an EU citizen you're supposed to join a different exit queue.
  - bambax 15y ago
    > In Europe everything is so much simpler. If you are inside UE all you need to show is your ID card and your are set. Simpler than that. Inside the Schengen zone, there are no borders at all; you can travel by car from France to Italy or Germany and back without being stopped anywhere.
    - yaix 15y ago
      You can just start working anywhere inside the Schengen area without needing any permit or working visa. Its more like the US States rather than different countries.
      - jwr 15y ago
        Not true. Unfortunately. The Schengen agreements regulate short-term stays only. For long-term stay or work there are specific laws, different for each country. I wish this were different, but Europe still has a long way to go before it is a single open market.
        yaix 15y ago
        If you are a Schengen citizen then try it. Just grab your stuff and go to Valencia or Stockholm and stay there for 10 year, no problem. Of course you have to pay tax there, register locally, etc. As EU citizen, you can even vote in local elections, as voter and candidate. But not all EU countries are in Schengen, and not all Schengen countries EU members. In many countries, the people are just too afraid for change. Same as with the Euro. People in countries like Sweden or UK are just too afraid to give up control of their own currency.
- andyking 15y ago
  I dread crossing through American border control at the airport every single time. I use O'Hare, and they literally look and talk to you like dirt. I'm doing nothing wrong, I'm visiting America for legitimate reasons, yet I'm barked at like an army recruit. Last time, I couldn't tell what the guy behind the glass screen was actually asking me to do, which irritated him immensely. "Lef'and." "Lef'and." "LEF'AND." It took a few tries for me to realise that what he was trying to say was "Can you put your left hand on the scanner, please?" Maybe it's because I'm British, but I find the British border and security people far more pleasant, which is strange because on the whole, I find British people colder than Americans. Even when something goes wrong, they're apologetic (I was randomly picked for a full pat-down last time I flew out of Manchester, and it was all done with friendliness, good humour, and apologies for delaying me slightly.) "Please" and "thank you" cost nothing, and would likely be quicker than these repeated barked orders. I like the American people--on the whole, I find them pleasant, polite, good-humoured, decent people. I mean, I am marrying one! So where do they find these people who work on the borders? Every single time I go through, I'm incredibly nervous of doing something slightly wrong, which makes me more nervous because I look nervous and worry they'll think I'm up to something. It's terrifying.
  - ivix 15y ago
    The behaviour of all british border agents whether actually at the border or at embassies around the world are a credit the country, in my experience. They understand that the border is the public face of a country and likely the only contact with the state a visitor will make.
    - com 15y ago
      I remember once going through the non-EU queue in Manchester, when the (black, probably Nigerian) guy in front of me got a bit of a going over about his visa status, until he broke down, then the agent discovered that he was a UK permanent resident as she was flicking through his passport and she realised he'd been turned away in Amsterdam (seems on a family visit). Anyway, the mood changed in an instant, he got a hug and advice about how to make sure the trip would work next time. It was nice to see a human response in such a situation.
- furyg3 15y ago
  The secret phrase that makes the troll let you cross the bridge is "Am I free to go?" You're an American citizen, they can't deny you entry.
  - yequalsx 15y ago
    I know that it was a Supreme Court ruling that Americans had an absolute right to come into the country. But in the present time we live in a situation where being labeled an enemy combatant or terrorist is grounds for indefinite detention without recourse to Habeas Corpus. Also, my girlfriend comes to the U.S. and I don't want to fuck things up for her. They know about her because she gets asked why she and I were in Turkey together 4 years ago.
- paganel 15y ago
  > I'm at the point where I wonder if I'm on a watch list. At this point "they" have already won. It doesn't really matter who "they" is, but I can tell you that having grown up as a kid in a former East-European communist country the feeling that every sane person had on their back of their heads was: "The Securitate is watching me. Better not do anything fancy" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securitate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securitate) . Even though, of course, the Securitate was only actively "watching" a small number of persons.
  - yequalsx 15y ago
    I grew up in the Canal Zone during the transition to full control to Panama. It was during the Noriega years and I had quite a few Panamanian friends and went into Panama City a lot. It was a dictatorship. Not at the same level of Romania but it was a dictatorship and I remember how one had to approach cops. In the U.S. people laugh at me when I say that I can no longer tell the difference between how to approach cops in America versus a dictatorship. We Americans have been manipulated by our leaders and it's sad for me to see how easily it was done.
    - refurb 15y ago
      Care to elaborate? I had a good friend who grew up in Romania and his stories scare the crap out of me. 1. Your next door neighbor is just gone one day, replaced with another family. Nobody asks why or what happened. You just don't ask. 2. Election ballets are write-ins. One guy wrote "Mickey Mouse" on the ballet and they came looking for him. He was forced to report to the local police station to watch propaganda videos for 8 hours a day for 8 days. People can complain about how things are going here in the US, but to say it becoming more and more like a dictatorship seems a little disingenuous.
      - yequalsx 15y ago
        Well it wasn't as bad in Panama under Noriega as it was in Romania under Ceaușescu. Panama couldn't be called a benevolent dictatorship but it wasn't the worst of them. Times were tough in Panama and this includes being tough for the cops. I had to pay bribes. I was once questioned by the police over a matter and was scared I'd be taken to a holding cell in Panama City. If you were put in a holding cell in Panama City and were not considered friendly to the regime you could be placed in a cell were you would be sexually assaulted by transvestites put in the cell for such a purpose. Some areas - nice areas - were off limits to Americans who knew better. Places were officer of the Panamanian military lived. You didn't want to be caught there. When stopped by cops you considered it a good thing if the only thing that happened was that you lost money. It was much worse for Panamanians than for Americans. We did have a military presence and until the end Noriega didn't want to push the boundaries of acceptable behavior too much. The two defining characteristics in my mind of a police state are a feeling of powerlessness when dealing with police forces and the feeling of arbitrariness of how police forces deal with you. We aren't at the point of police statehood yet but I see the U.S. going down this path.
Wazowski 15y ago
This was interesting because, as an American who has traveled abroad, I was not aware that we make even our closest allies, the British, pay a fee online before entering America. I would love to hear from foreigners on their border experiences.
- corin_ 15y ago
  Compared to flying somewhere where you need an actually approved visa, like China, ESTA is both conveniant and cheap. Given that until not long ago we Brits needed a visa to go to America, it's a hell of a step up.
  - vidarh 15y ago
    It might be a step up from the visas, but it's a step down from the previous state with the visa waiver program and no requirement to fill in anything at all online.
    - arethuza 15y ago
      Didn't you have to fill in two forms on the flight (a green one and a white one) rather than one now?
      - narcissus 15y ago
        Not that I fly that often, but I don't mind filling out two forms when I'm on a plane. Knowing that I had to do an online application before getting on the plane... that was just a fluke that I found that out! I just don't like the whole "oh yeah, we have a visa waiver agreement with your country... you don't have to apply for a visa, but you do have to apply and pay to not have to apply for a visa..." I'm sure it's not like that in reality, but that's what it feels like to me.
        buro9 15y ago
        You're lucky that you don't have to apply for a visa. I do, and it's not fun. I have an application in the works at the moment, started the process with the US Embassy on 28th October 2011, and here I am 4 months and 17 days later not knowing anything and no idea when I might hear. Ignoring all other points (2-6 hours in secondary being interrogated at the border), the endless process for getting a Visa is a real pain and a massive deterrent. It's not like this is my first time, I've visited the US more than 10 times and had visit Visas in the past. Nothing has changed, but each application still takes an indeterminately long time. I was hoping to go to a conference, but it's too late now, it's passed. Perhaps to also try and make some meetings with some potential business partners. The reality keeps coming home: Just don't bother. It's far more hassle than it's worth. If you get past the Visa (a gamble in itself), then you still have the border to look forward to. I cannot recall a single trip in which crossing the border was anything less than hellish. This, of course, is all anecdotal. But behind anecdotes are people, this is my unfortunate reality.
pan69 15y ago
Isn't that called Xenophobia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia
- babarock 15y ago
  Imho, it's not xenophobia as much as "foreigners don't vote, who cares about making things better for them".
  - sambeau 15y ago
    Tourists bring lots of money which they spend in the shops, hotels, restaurants, taxis, etc of voters. Voters should be voting to encourage this.
    - kamjam 15y ago
      Especially given the current economic climate, you'd think they'd want every dime they could get!
  - mjwalshe 15y ago
    And I think the lack of foriegn travel by a lot of US citizens has somthing to do with it. If you have gone on forign holidays and gone through customs your self you might be more understanding when your doing that job.
- nodata 15y ago
  No. Read the article you linked to.
- canadiancreed 15y ago
  I'd say it's a mix of that, protectionism, and 1930's isolationism being mixed into a healthy, toxic brew
krolley 15y ago
I recall reading somewhere that the reason that these ESTA forms exist, or the travel cards for Britain and Australia is that if you arrive and they found that you really _had_ a criminal record when you ticked the box that said you didn't, is so they can throw you out of the country for providing false information on the document, rather than for having a criminal record.
- corin_ 15y ago
  Sounds rather pointless to me, but if that is the case, how about moving to two questions: "Have you read all the rules?" "Are you breaking any of them?" Much quicker.
babarock 15y ago
My country is not a US "ally", so what I say may not apply to every one. One thing we get used to is the "step aside" treatment. When a border agent sees my Lebanese passport with "arabic gibberish" they usually react the same way. There's a little hesitation, (one time the agent even called her supervisor), then I'm asked to "step aside", go to a special lane, get a full body search from an extremely cold person following protocole to the letter. They will go through all my stuff, literally everything and after making sure I'm "clean" they let me go. I don't complain much though, it's just a funny ritual. And more often than none, the "step aside" lane is far less crowded than the regular one, which means that despite the intensive search, it's still takes me less time. On the other hand, one of my closest friends studying at Purdue University had a mandatory two hour stop in an interrogation room, every time he passezd by the airport of Chicago, because he has the mention "born in Beirut" on his French passport. "Randomly selected" they said...
- sneak 15y ago
  I carry a US passport from being a US citizen, and I get similar treatment every time I enter the country, due to refusing to answer their voluntary questions about what I do for a living, where I'm going inside the USA, what I do in the country in which I live (Germany), etc. They have to let me in and they know it, so they exercise their power by detaining me for 2-8 hours and going through all of my stuff. It's always a real half-assed search, too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
  - billforsternz 15y ago
    Wouldn't it be easier to answer the questions in a friendly manner ?
    - bumbledraven 15y ago
      Wouldn't it have been easier for Rosa Parks to just go to the back of the bus?
    - sneak 15y ago
noonespecial 15y ago
Every once in a while I daydream about a government full of rationalists who one day say to themselves, "Hey, um, you know what would be a better thing to spend our money on preventing than terrorism? Cancer."
sambeau 15y ago
While the card-filling and pointless questioning is a pain the worst aspect of arriving in the US is the state of the US airports, specifically the facilities in arrivals. On my first visit I was unable to find a working ATM, was insulted by a surly woman running an info desk who was more interested in talking to her boyfriend and was accosted by numerous taxi drivers none of which seemed to be properly licensed. The experience was no different to arriving in a 3rd world country.
- bobwebb 15y ago
  Which city did you arrive at?
  - sambeau 15y ago
    New York.
- yardie 15y ago
  LOL, have you been to CDG (Paris) yet?
  - sambeau 15y ago
    I've flown to Nice many times and it's fine. Although, on the way out last time (when I had a proper beard) I was pulled aside by the security guy and had the following whispered in my ear: "I know who you are…" panic. heart in mouth. I'm about to be locked up (beat) "Nice to meet you Santa Claus!"
Dervall 15y ago
This is very accurate. As a Swede going to visit the US, a country which I love dearly, the last summer my main fear was filling out forms incorrectly or the airports security procedure. And Sweden is more or less a total ally to America, if unofficial, and a major trading partner. It's hard to find someone less threatening than a Swedish citizen. Which really is a shame, because in general Americans are a friendly bunch of people.
- Radim 15y ago
  I see your point. But on my visit to Sweden (one of the otherwise most beautiful and pleasant countries I've been to), I did find some "threatening Swedish citizens", first hand. I just wanted to point out that painting all your fellow-citizens with the same brush as yourself is perhaps too idealistic. The US may have their reasons for not absolving all Swedes from their customs procedures (silly as the procedures are). EDIT: made my experience more PC to stop the downvotes
- ajuc 15y ago
  At least you don't need green cards. Poland is more or less USA troyan horse these days (see Afghanistan, Iraq, missile defence, etc), and still to go to USA you need to participate in lottery.. I think it's somehow playing out for Poland good - it makes brain drain a little slower.
- excuse-me 15y ago
  I flew into Salt-Lake city when they decided that all 'foreigners' were going to be subjected to special security. Which meant putting us into a glass booth behind the x-ray machine for an hour while we waited to be `secured`. The only foreigners on the flight were me and an elderly women clutching an Israeli passport. But America (or at Least Utah) was kept safe from the threat of a very small UK-Israeli invasion. Although in SLC - even the TSA are nice polite smiling mormons.
etherael 15y ago
CDG airport in France has awesome security. One time through there after having put my passport through a washing machine by accident, when I asked if this would be a problem they just laughed and said no, no, not at all, it's very clean. Meanwhile, under no circumstances would I even consider visiting or transiting the US.
- rb2k_ 15y ago
  They do make your exit the security zone on layovers though. That's the reason why I try to avoid CDG if i can. Side note: All google servers are reachable for free over the wifi. (you can e.g. set up an app engine proxy)
- emwa 15y ago
  I recently had to change Airports in France from CDG to Orly when travelling to Barcelona for the Mobile World Congress. I had a Schengen Visa and on mentioning that I was on transit to Barcelona, they started demanding to see the invitation (Lucky I had it printed), whether I had some cash to take me Orly Airport, my credit card and a load of bullshit questioning by a guy who I could hardly hear because he was speaking very fast in a low voice behind the glass. I felt like asking him to speak up but felt like that wouldn't have ended well. After some moments he stamped the thing and threw it back.
hopeless 15y ago
I've avoided all conferences and work trips to the U.S. since 2003. Next year my wife's cousin is getting married in NY and I really don't want to go -- purely because of the hostile airport security It's generally not about the practical implications (there aren't any, most tourists pass through fine) but about the theoretical possibilities and the implication that I'm only visiting so I can blow something up, or that I've strapped C4 to my 4yo daughter who must be xray'd or patted-down.
swombat 15y ago
I deliberately avoid planning any trip to the US because of this. The only reason I'll travel to the US for at this point is if I have an overwhelming business imperative to do so. For example, I'd probably travel to the US to be interviewed by YC, if I ever applied. For pleasure? Not a chance.
- lysium 15y ago
  Same with me: For pleasure? No. Really overwhelming business reason? Maybe. I don't need to repeat my last experience I had (and I'm from Germany), let alone going through ridiculous airport "security".
- masklinn 15y ago
  > The only reason I'll travel to the US for at this point is if I have an overwhelming business imperative to do so. For example, I'd probably travel to the US to be interviewed by YC, if I ever applied. For pleasure? Not a chance. Don't fuck up your visa application though, a colleague did that (he got a business visa but the wrong one), was refused entry and — because it was during the Eyjafjallajökull event — had the chance to visit the US's penitentiaries for a week before they could put him on a plane back.
benjaminwootton 15y ago
On my recent trips to and through the US, I've been pleasantly surprised by how I've been treated at the border. All of the staff were extremely friendly and helpful - they seemed as though they were actively trying to create a good impression and reverse this perception. I'm a Brit, usually travelling via NYC.
cstross 15y ago
I'm British. I visit the USA 2-3 times per year and travel elsewhere quite frequently. I would rate the "welcome mat" as rather less welcoming than Yugoslavia during the Cold War (a Communist dictatorship). One annoying note: my wife and I did not change our names when we got married. On a couple of recent occasions we've travelled separately via different airports/on different dates, to rendezvous subsequently. If entering the USA separately on such trips, she usually gets the third degree: "why aren't you travelling with your husband?" There's serious institutional sexism at work in the immigration system. (Not just the discrimination against middle-easterners that we all know about.) One point to note is that ICE personnel live and work locally. So your reception varies quite dramatically depending on your port of entry. At Portland and Seattle, for example, they're generally polite, friendly, and about as reasonable as it's possible to be while working within an unreasonable framework. On the other hand, I actively try to avoid entering the US at Newark. The least annoying US immigration clearance experience I've had was in Dublin, Ireland -- the US immigration staff screen travellers by special arrangement on Irish soil (as on Canadian soil) and they've pretty much gone native. Alas, that means flying via Aer Lingus or Delta, which add other drawbacks ...
- arethuza 15y ago
  The only time I travelled into Yugoslavia during the Cold War (July '88) was rather scary - we were on a train from Italy and it stopped in the middle of nowhere and a troops appeared and surrounded the train. I distinctly remember watching them set up what looked like an enormous machine gun of some kind, which was pointed directly at our compartment. They then did whole "papers please" routine down the length of the train. Things got quite amusing when they got to my travelling companion as he had grown a beard since having his passport photo taken - so his facial hair was given a rather close examination and a sound tug or two. In my typically rather naive way I thought it was all quite exciting, at least until they got to some harmless old lady who clearly did not have her papers in order and the soldiers all got really very angry indeed - to the point where one took out his pistol and started waiving it around rather a lot. They probably shouted at her for the best part of an hour. Eventually the train moved on, but it took a long time and was very unpleasant.
  - 15y ago
nodata 15y ago
I like the article, but the conclusion is wrong. Hiring even more border staff is not the solution. Common sense and logical decisions are the correct approach. Scrap everything else.
rb2k_ 15y ago
My (German) perspective on this: I've traveled to the US (always to Boston) a few times over the recent years. While all of the "take your shoes off" stuff is annoying, it's really not that big of a deal. The ESTA process can be done online and you can pay with your credit card. It takes about 15 minutes and 15 minutes after that you get an email. It's all a little bit annoying, but I don't feel personally insulted and so far it worked without a hassle. The border security people have always been nice to me and it felt more like a chit-chat rather than an interrogation. A lot of the process seems useless, but seeing as it doesn't take away all that much time, I'm fine with it. I've been treated way worse traveling to eastern european countries by car.
- yardie 15y ago
  Part of this may be your country of origin, part of it may be because you have ESTA clearance, and part of it may be because of the airport you fly into. As a US passport holder I'm pretty much done using LAX, MIA, and EWR.
  - rb2k_ 15y ago
    I don't think you can actually enter at all without ESTA clearance
    - DrJokepu 15y ago
      You only need ESTA if you want a WT/WB (visa waiver) visa. If you already have another non-immigrant or immigrant visa and you meet the conditions of the visa, you don't need an ESTA. Also you don't need an ESTA for WT/WB if you're crossing the US border on land from Canada or Mexico.
    - yardie 15y ago
      I didn't realize the ESTA was mandatory. I don't have to fill one out and thought, because you pay a fee, it gave you some sort of priority. I see now this is for travellers on the VFW visa.
- DrJokepu 15y ago
waterside81 15y ago
Here's some more anecdotal evidence about the nonsense of the ESTA form. My g/f is British, we live in Toronto. We flew to the US and her ESTA application from a few years back had expired. (Every 3-4 years I think, you have to renew). So at the airline check in, we're informed she'll have to re-apply. We though we were screwed but no, she just had to apply right there on the spot using my iPad and the airport's free wi-fi. Went to the ESTA site, filled out some info, paid the fee with a credit card and then proceeded to US immigration (which in Toronto, is in the airport itself). How much security could that form be adding if you can apply for it literally minutes before travelling to the US.
- CaptainZapp 15y ago
  How much security could that form be adding if you can apply for it literally minutes before travelling to the US. I heard from an American work colleague that a main point is traceability. You pay with a credit card and can fairly easily be tracked by that, while you're in the country. I'm not sure how true this is and I'm not a believer in whacky conspiracy theories, but it seemed rather plausible.
- btbuilder 15y ago
  I think you might be looking at this the wrong way. Credit card authorization occurs in miliseconds but is still a good anti-fraud measure. If her ESTA application had been denied, she would not have been able to travel and would have to apply for a visa at a US embassy. The pre-board checks for ESTA were performed electronically. I believe there's also a state where an application has to be reviewed, and that can take days to reach a decision. I don't know anyone who has had that happen though.
squadron 15y ago
My parents want to move to the States from Canada (long story) and it's staggering all the paperwork they need to fill out. One of the requirements is to document everywhere you have lived for the past 16 years, including home addresses. With all the places they have lived in Canada, it's taken them weeks to Columbo up the information. Myself, I've lived five places in 6 months about 10 years ago (another long story). Recollecting those times and places is something I'd rather not do.
graeme 15y ago
For Canadians, it is infinitely easier to enter communist Cuba than the United States. I passed through extra screening in Cuba once, because I had previously worked there, which made them nervous. The secondary screen was more in than speaking to a normal American guard.We had a great conversation, actually. We laughed, and talked about my work in Cuba. In the USA there seems to be a no laughing rule. In Amercan airports, you're treated as if you're doing something wrong by being there. The guards glare a you - it's very strange. For some reason, land border crossings are usuall better. So I try and enter by train or car if possible. While i've had 1-2 bad experiences by land, the guards are usually quite nice. The TSA seems to be the main problem, and their toxic culture has infected other airport personnel. I like Americans, but I avoid traveling to the country.
- talentdeficit 15y ago
  I fly into the US via YVR Vancouver approximately 18 times per year, and it's almost always a terrible experience. ICE officers are surly, impatient and unpleasant, even when there's no lineup and no urgency. There are exceptions, there is one officer who knows me on sight and always asks how my previous visits were. The majority can't even be bothered to make eye contact or do anything beyond order me through the fingerprint scans and photographs. Once, one accused me of hating America for living in Canada but doing business in the USA. By car, however, the experience has almost always been excellent. One border agent told me an extended anecdote about why Andrew Jackson was called 'Old Hickory' when I paid my VISA fees with a $10 bill. Another greeted me with 'you know weezy? good times?'. They seem relaxed, friendly and happy in general. There definitely seems to be a difference in culture between the airport personnel and the land border personnel.
  - excuse-me 15y ago
    I think there is a natural air of doom over everyone who works at an airport. But US immigration at YVR is the worst. I think it's because they are forced to be in Vancouver while still working for ICE. It's like being forced to work at a soup kitchen inside a Purdeys chocolate shop!
wildmXranat 15y ago
I don't want to pile on with my complaints about travelling to the USA, so I'll just mention that I will not fly there for leisure or if it can be avoided. Living in Toronto allows me to drive across, which will suffice in most occasions. I came to this conclusion after a few unwelcoming treatments.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
acabal 15y ago
I get nervous every time I cross the border back in to America, and I'm an American citizen.
efalcao 15y ago
Even as an American, border patrol officers scare the crap out of me. I'm totally worried about stumbling on some dumb question and getting detained. I'll never forget my return from Mexico on the day before 9/11 where I was greeted by a border patrol agent with piercing blue eyes, leather gloves with cut-off tips and a big nasty snot bubble protruding from his right nostril.
mvip 15y ago
I'm a Swedish citizen and I travel to the U.S. a few times a year (to Silicon Valley mostly). I always dread going through customs. The TSA must have been rejected from any other job, including flipping burgers, before landing this gig. They are usually very rude and assume you are a terrorist until you persuade them that you're not. That said, it varies a lot between airports. I've flown through many different airports on my way to SFO, and the closer you get to the west-coast, the friendlier the agents (with individual exceptions of course). SFO and Seattle tend to be the most friendly ones in my experience. Yet, you're in a constant fear that you checked the wrong box somewhere, and they'll send you on the next flight home. For a civilized country, this is simply unacceptable. I wish all politicians would be forced through this process every time they flew, and I'm confident that this would change in no-time.
- afterburner 15y ago
  "The TSA must have been rejected from any other job, including flipping burgers, before landing this gig." This is the real problem I think.
- waiwai933 15y ago
  Just a small note—US customs and immigration is handled by the Customs and Border Patrol, not the TSA (which handles security screening only).
  - mvip 15y ago
    Good point. You're right.
crusso 15y ago
The comments in this thread are really eye opening. I like the YC forums because they're very entrepreneurial and not full of a bunch of whiners. The fact that there are so many negative complaints regarding US border security is more than noteworthy. The TSA and Immigration are just so way out of control. Overall, I think that this is the result of a lack of consistent and sane policies regarding immigration and border control. On the one hand, we do relatively little to stop illegal immigration on some of our borders for political reasons. Then on the other hand, we flail madly in the authoritarian direction by having this massive and unchecked TSA bureaucracy. We really have no idea what we're doing on a national level. As ineffective and counterproductive as border security and immigration is here, I can bet even without looking at the numbers that it isn't cheap.
DanBC 15y ago
"They" will say that they're under constant threat of harm; there are people (not necessarily terrorists) trying to smuggle stuff onto planes or into the country, and that they have to maintain constant vigilance and being gruff, grumpy, aggressive is a technique they use to unsettle people carrying illicit items. There are obvious problems with that. Interestingly, the (much mocked) TSA blog lists some items they find each week. Very roughly, about 20 guns per week are taken as carry on onto planes. (http://blog.tsa.gov/search/label/Week%20In%20Review http://blog.tsa.gov/search/label/Week%20In%20Review) I have no idea how many people go through TSA each week. Nor how many guns (loaded or otherwise) they miss. I have no idea if any of the weapons they stopped would have been used for violence. But that feels like a very small number, when compared to the direct and indirect costs of the system. Note also the mission creep - they're very happy to list any drugs they find. (They do say that they're not looking for drugs, but if they happen to find them they have to report it.)
benohear 15y ago
There could be some value of filling in the questionnaire beforehand, namely to make you aware of certain restrictions ahead of time. Like the fact that you shouldn't be a genocidal terro ... OK, there really is no justification for THAT kind of question. But, for example, I recently smuggled a packet of Spanish Jamon into a Latin American country which completely bans bringing that kind of thing in. But I only found out on the plane, and there's no way I was going to flush 400gr of prime Iberico (which on top of it was a gift) on arrival.
hodder 15y ago
“The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men" - Plato
yaix 15y ago
> At Beijing’s glittering airport, travelers are invited to electronically rate their immigration agent. They do that in every gov't office in China and every (gov't owned) bank. All have these little things with buttons, where you can rate the service with one to five stars. I highly doubt that anybody ever looks at those numbers. More likely that a very well-connected dude has a company producing these machines.
steilpass 15y ago
I don't know if it still exists but for Germans the most "fun" question is wether we are Nazis.
ed209 15y ago
I made my first trip to the US this week, Austin via Houston from UK to sxsw. I had read various reports on the state of entering America, but it was far worse than I expected. I tried to find info about visas, but it said I didn't need one for what was practically a holiday. It was only when I got to the airport that I was told I needed a visa waiver. I fired up the iPhone and spent the best part of 30 minutes trying to fill out what is probably the worst multipart form I've seen since 2003. On arrival at Houston it seems a couple of other planes turned up. The end result was a 3 hour wait in line to get through passport control (Americans were caught up in this equally). Fingerprints, photos, 3rd degree about my visit - if they don't want me here, they should have said before I booked my ticket. After checking-in to the US, I had to go back through "security". That was another 1.5 hour queue. I opted out of the scanner, and they were pretty good about it a Houston. However, on the way back at Austin they make you stand in a ridiculous perspex shout it about the place and really make you pay for not going through the scanner. Over all, the experience I had is summed up pretty well by this article. I felt totally unwelcome, kind of like an 18 year old trying to get into an over capacity nightclub past a couple of bored bouncers who already took a dislike to me...
tokenadult 15y ago
Mark Vanhoenacker is a writer and airline pilot based in New York. I read through the whole interesting submitted article, and the one question I have is about actual numbers of tourist visitors to the United States. After the worldwide recession, tourism to the United States from other countries declined, http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Foreign-Tourism-Drops-in-United-States-92774799.html http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Foreign-Tourism-Drops-in... but the number of tourists has since recovered. The United Nations World Tourism Barometer http://mkt.unwto.org/sites/all/files/docpdf/unwtohighlights11enlr.pdf http://mkt.unwto.org/sites/all/files/docpdf/unwtohighlights1... reports that the United States is second only to France in the number of foreign tourism visits, and that the United States enjoyed growth in visits from the 2010 reporting year compared to the 2009 reporting year. The submitted article didn't mention statistics like this, but reported on anecdotes. I'm an American who has lived overseas. I haven't crossed an interational border in a bit more than a decade. (All other members of my family have crossed international borders since 9/11/2001.) I hope to travel to Canada by car with my whole family this summer. I fully agree with the author's premise that the United States ought to look as friendly and welcoming as the people in my community when foreign visitors first encounter a United States border official. But I can't help but wonder if this really matters a lot from the "attract tourists" point of view, if the United States has a continued growth in the number of tourists, and it is second only to a Schengen Area country that has a land border and rail connections with other Schengen Area countries in the number of foreign visitors it enjoys every year. Maybe most visitors understand that annoying security measures at the border are part of what make the freedom of movement inside the United States borders a palatable policy for many Americans who are more worried about terrorist attacks than I am.
- grhino 15y ago
  It's also possible that word hasn't spread enough among potential foreign travelers of the pain of the U.S. Border control. A lot of foreign travelers to the US may have not experienced recent border control at all, and so they decide to travel without any real knowledge about that. The "unwelcome mat" may be damping tourism growth by discouraging repeat visitors rather than outright discouraging all visitors.
colkassad 15y ago
I met and married my wife overseas. When we moved back to the States, I went with her while she was cleared through immigration in Newark Airport, NJ. We waited in an area with other people going through the same process. The immigration officer walked in with this disgusted look, sighed heavily, and proceeded to process everyone. It was appalling how he treated people, yelling at them to place their hand properly for fingerprinting, telling people not to talk unless asked to, etc. He proceeded to treat my wife like crap as well, until he looked over her paperwork and noticed she was travelling with me, and asked her where her husband was. She pointed at me and his demeanor changed immediately. He obviously wasn't used to being observed by a fellow American in his day to day work. I wish I had had the balls to say something to him, but as far as we were concerned, he was holding the keys to the kingdom.
tbsdy 15y ago
I tried to look at the ESTA form, but at the point where I read and agreed to the disclaimer, after I clicked on the Next button it wouldn't go any further. Not a good start!
user2459 15y ago
It's not an unwelcome mat, it's a go away mat. As an American who travels a lot the biggest hassle I've ever had to deal with when entering another country was putting my bag through an x-ray machine and filling out a form about fruits and vegetables. Whenever I get back to the states I see hours long lines of non citizens waiting to get through customs with way too few customs officers stamping passports. That alone would be an unwelcome mat, but put on everything else we make people go through and we're pretty much just saying "Go Away". Along with the fee and abusive questionnaire at this site https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/ https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/ we've also got this lovely informational site http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1262.html http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1262.html and tons of other fees http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1263.html http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1263.html . Then of course after you've paid all your fees and told the US government all about your diseases, mental illness, and intention to spy on them, you still have to give them your fingerprints, photo, submit to a search, wait in line for 2 hours, and answer many more questions about the same stuff. It's not xenophobia. It's full on we think we're better than you and you pathetic humans get to deal with us 'cos we said so. The whole system wreaks of 'cos we said so. Every citizen and border patrol agent knows it's excessive and ineffective, but we keep on truckin' cos hey, they're all just doing their, trained to be overly aggressive, jobs.
robomartin 15y ago
I have thought for a long time that part of the US tax code ought to be devoted to getting people to travel outside the US. A nice tax credit for foreign travel would open the eyes of our citizens to what lies beyond their town borders. I would see this as an investment in culture and not necessarily a subsidy. Maybe it's something you can use once every few years and not every year. This would do wonders for both the average US citizen's view of the world as well as the world's view of the US citizens. My hope is that something like this might just lead to more sensible behavior towards other cultures and peoples. What happens when entering the country is but one small example of the problem.
- untog 15y ago
  The American government just handing out money to foreigners? Get out of here, you filthy liberal. Of course, sarcasm on my part, but I'm pretty sure that would be the kind of reaction you'd get. You think of "investment in culture" as a good thing, many others see a liberal conspiracy.
  - robomartin 15y ago
    The funny thing is that I am not a liberal. I'm not a conservative either. A sensible mixture, maybe. Traveling really opens your mind in ways that can't be quantified. I really think that our countrymen can be very egocentric to the point of bordering on ignorance. Understanding and knowing about other cultures is very important. I'd gladly support such a tax incentive because I am sure that it would pay dividends many times over in amazing ways.
- grecy 15y ago
  > part of the US tax code ought to be devoted to getting people to travel outside the US I think that goes against everything "the government" in America is currently about. Do they want you to know that many European countries mandate a minimum of 6 weeks leave a year? or that the murder rate in America is 10 times any other Developed country, or that the American school system is a train-wreck, or that..... etc. etc. I feel strongly that the whole point right now to is discourage Americans from learning about the outside world, lest they want to improve a few things at home.
MikeStall57 15y ago
I am an American citizen. My race is not white though. I have traveled all over the world, and have visited over 30 countries. There is no country that I am more afraid to enter than the United States of America, my own home country. When arriving in the United States I am rudely interrogated and treated guilty (of what?) until proven innocent. When I arrive in other countries, I'm told "Welcome". It makes me sad.
bryanh 15y ago
I wonder, did citizens immediately prior to the existence of the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany sit around in bars and have the exact same rational discussion that we're having here? Surely it can't get that bad, but it did before.
mongol 15y ago
This is a good idea. I have not visited the US in more than 15 years, so has not been subjected to fingerprints or this online form.. Do you think it is wortwhile for me to wait until rules change, or should I get used to the idea that the rest of the world will hold enough of interesting scenery for me to visit during my lifetime.
rickmb 15y ago
The painful part of the whole entering the US thing is not the bureaucracy or the security theater. It's the people. The whole system seems to be filled with people that are trained to make entering the US an unpleasant experience. Even when everything goes smoothly, rarely are people at the border being nice, polite and helpful as they are in most other countries. This is all the more remarkable since it is so distinctively un-American. Americans are probably the most friendly and open people in the Western world. Once you get past the border, it's a breath of fresh air compared to most European countries. So regardless whether or not the entire process is really justified, my main question is: what the fuck is wrong with these people?
whiletruefork 15y ago
My name is on the no fly list (well, mine and a million others). I get 'randomly' stopped by customs every time I re-enter the country through an airport. This doesn't happen at passport control but rather at customs. I've started leaving notes addressed "Dear TSA" in my luggage just to laugh at the expression on the agents face as they go through my dirty clothes.
tallanvor 15y ago
I can't even find the words to explain just how much I agree with this article. There are several times when I've been absolutely amazed at how horribly I was treated while going through boarder control, and I'm an American. --They even treat us like criminals, so the bullshit foreigners have to go through with ESTA, getting their fingerprints and photos taken and whatnot is beyond embarrassing. I live in Norway now, and when people I know are headed to the US, I actually feel the need to apologize about the treatment I know they'll receive, even though I wrote to my senators protesting a lot of these policies that our government voted in. I can only hope that one day they'll realize the injustice of what they've done. I'm thankful that most countries - especially countries in Europe, haven't been vindictive and forced the same treatment on Americans, although I wouldn't blame them if they did.
jwr 15y ago
I am a dual citizen (this includes US citizenship) and I was always amazed at how I'm treated when entering the US. It is as if the border guards were deciding whether to let me in or not! (Actually, I think this is exactly what they're doing) I mean, what does it matter where I'm heading in the US, where I work, or where my family lives? How is that anybody's business? I'm entering my own country, after all! As a comparison, in most European countries the passport control does two things, and two things only: a) determine whether you are a citizen (e.g. passport control), b) determine whether you are a criminal that needs to be arrested immediately. There is no other option. If you are a citizen of the country you are entering and they don't arrest you right away, they can't detain you, question you, harass you, or do anything else. There are no questions about where you're heading, where you work, what you do for a living. There would be no point in asking: as a citizen, you have the right to be heading anywhere, working anywhere, or actually not making a living at all. Land of the free, indeed.
- DenisM 15y ago
  They are probably trying to figure out if you are who you say you are by asking all kinds of questions that you know the answer for and an impersonator would struggle with. Not condoning they behavior, just pointing out.
teyc 15y ago
Leaving the US equally difficult. I went to a conference in Orlando and was planning to fly through LA to SYD. However, the DHS told me I had to report to the LA office before I leave during office hours, so I had to change my flights to one day earlier and spend the night in LA just to check in at the DHS.

389 points by fuzzix 15y ago

I'm a white middle class U.S. citizen. The only country's borders that I get nervous crossing are America's. I've gotten harassed quite a few times. I'm at the point where I wonder if I'm on a watch list. Last time I was in Germany for 3 months before flying back to the U.S. Questions I was asked in an unfriendly, brusque manner: Why were you gone so long? Don't you work? What do you do for a living? Why would your employer let you be gone so long? Why did you pay so much for that? I wish foreigners would stop visiting the U.S. Maybe then we would change our policies.

phatbyte 15y ago
It's already happening in some way, lots of people I know refuse to travel to US because of so many horror border stories. In Europe everything is so much simpler. If you are inside UE all you need to show is your ID card and your are set. Why doesn't US do the same thing with european countries at least ? Same thing for working VISA, we are the good-old-europe for god sake :P not a quarantine zone
- vidarh 15y ago
  > In Europe everything is so much simpler. If you are inside UE all you need to show is your ID card and your are set. If you are inside the Schengen area, you only need to show your id card. Go to/from the UK, and you still need your passport. Traveling between Schengen countries is more comparable to traveling between US states than from Europe to US or reverse, because the whole point of Schengen is a common system for protecting the "outer" borders.
  - rcj 15y ago
    A German id card is enough to enter/leave the UK. No passport required. I would assume the same holds for other european id cards.
    - Sharlin 15y ago
      It holds for many European countries. The United Kingdom has separate passport-free travel agreements with most, but not all, Schengen countries (and with some non-Schengen countries as well.)
  - phatbyte 15y ago
    No true, I travel to the UK very often and I only show my ID, which works as a passport inside EU countries.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
  - merijnv 15y ago
    To be fair, my travel outside of the Schengen has still been a lot more pleasant than the way the US border is described...
  - john_flintstone 15y ago
    Not if you're travelling from Ireland. You don't need to show any ID - though technically, if you're not an EU citizen you're supposed to join a different exit queue.
- bambax 15y ago
  > In Europe everything is so much simpler. If you are inside UE all you need to show is your ID card and your are set. Simpler than that. Inside the Schengen zone, there are no borders at all; you can travel by car from France to Italy or Germany and back without being stopped anywhere.
  - yaix 15y ago
    You can just start working anywhere inside the Schengen area without needing any permit or working visa. Its more like the US States rather than different countries.
    - jwr 15y ago
      Not true. Unfortunately. The Schengen agreements regulate short-term stays only. For long-term stay or work there are specific laws, different for each country. I wish this were different, but Europe still has a long way to go before it is a single open market.
      - yaix 15y ago
        If you are a Schengen citizen then try it. Just grab your stuff and go to Valencia or Stockholm and stay there for 10 year, no problem. Of course you have to pay tax there, register locally, etc. As EU citizen, you can even vote in local elections, as voter and candidate. But not all EU countries are in Schengen, and not all Schengen countries EU members. In many countries, the people are just too afraid for change. Same as with the Euro. People in countries like Sweden or UK are just too afraid to give up control of their own currency.
andyking 15y ago
I dread crossing through American border control at the airport every single time. I use O'Hare, and they literally look and talk to you like dirt. I'm doing nothing wrong, I'm visiting America for legitimate reasons, yet I'm barked at like an army recruit. Last time, I couldn't tell what the guy behind the glass screen was actually asking me to do, which irritated him immensely. "Lef'and." "Lef'and." "LEF'AND." It took a few tries for me to realise that what he was trying to say was "Can you put your left hand on the scanner, please?" Maybe it's because I'm British, but I find the British border and security people far more pleasant, which is strange because on the whole, I find British people colder than Americans. Even when something goes wrong, they're apologetic (I was randomly picked for a full pat-down last time I flew out of Manchester, and it was all done with friendliness, good humour, and apologies for delaying me slightly.) "Please" and "thank you" cost nothing, and would likely be quicker than these repeated barked orders. I like the American people--on the whole, I find them pleasant, polite, good-humoured, decent people. I mean, I am marrying one! So where do they find these people who work on the borders? Every single time I go through, I'm incredibly nervous of doing something slightly wrong, which makes me more nervous because I look nervous and worry they'll think I'm up to something. It's terrifying.
- ivix 15y ago
  The behaviour of all british border agents whether actually at the border or at embassies around the world are a credit the country, in my experience. They understand that the border is the public face of a country and likely the only contact with the state a visitor will make.
  - com 15y ago
    I remember once going through the non-EU queue in Manchester, when the (black, probably Nigerian) guy in front of me got a bit of a going over about his visa status, until he broke down, then the agent discovered that he was a UK permanent resident as she was flicking through his passport and she realised he'd been turned away in Amsterdam (seems on a family visit). Anyway, the mood changed in an instant, he got a hug and advice about how to make sure the trip would work next time. It was nice to see a human response in such a situation.
furyg3 15y ago
The secret phrase that makes the troll let you cross the bridge is "Am I free to go?" You're an American citizen, they can't deny you entry.
- yequalsx 15y ago
  I know that it was a Supreme Court ruling that Americans had an absolute right to come into the country. But in the present time we live in a situation where being labeled an enemy combatant or terrorist is grounds for indefinite detention without recourse to Habeas Corpus. Also, my girlfriend comes to the U.S. and I don't want to fuck things up for her. They know about her because she gets asked why she and I were in Turkey together 4 years ago.
paganel 15y ago
> I'm at the point where I wonder if I'm on a watch list. At this point "they" have already won. It doesn't really matter who "they" is, but I can tell you that having grown up as a kid in a former East-European communist country the feeling that every sane person had on their back of their heads was: "The Securitate is watching me. Better not do anything fancy" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securitate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securitate) . Even though, of course, the Securitate was only actively "watching" a small number of persons.
- yequalsx 15y ago
  I grew up in the Canal Zone during the transition to full control to Panama. It was during the Noriega years and I had quite a few Panamanian friends and went into Panama City a lot. It was a dictatorship. Not at the same level of Romania but it was a dictatorship and I remember how one had to approach cops. In the U.S. people laugh at me when I say that I can no longer tell the difference between how to approach cops in America versus a dictatorship. We Americans have been manipulated by our leaders and it's sad for me to see how easily it was done.
  - refurb 15y ago
    Care to elaborate? I had a good friend who grew up in Romania and his stories scare the crap out of me. 1. Your next door neighbor is just gone one day, replaced with another family. Nobody asks why or what happened. You just don't ask. 2. Election ballets are write-ins. One guy wrote "Mickey Mouse" on the ballet and they came looking for him. He was forced to report to the local police station to watch propaganda videos for 8 hours a day for 8 days. People can complain about how things are going here in the US, but to say it becoming more and more like a dictatorship seems a little disingenuous.
    - yequalsx 15y ago
      Well it wasn't as bad in Panama under Noriega as it was in Romania under Ceaușescu. Panama couldn't be called a benevolent dictatorship but it wasn't the worst of them. Times were tough in Panama and this includes being tough for the cops. I had to pay bribes. I was once questioned by the police over a matter and was scared I'd be taken to a holding cell in Panama City. If you were put in a holding cell in Panama City and were not considered friendly to the regime you could be placed in a cell were you would be sexually assaulted by transvestites put in the cell for such a purpose. Some areas - nice areas - were off limits to Americans who knew better. Places were officer of the Panamanian military lived. You didn't want to be caught there. When stopped by cops you considered it a good thing if the only thing that happened was that you lost money. It was much worse for Panamanians than for Americans. We did have a military presence and until the end Noriega didn't want to push the boundaries of acceptable behavior too much. The two defining characteristics in my mind of a police state are a feeling of powerlessness when dealing with police forces and the feeling of arbitrariness of how police forces deal with you. We aren't at the point of police statehood yet but I see the U.S. going down this path.

Wazowski 15y ago

This was interesting because, as an American who has traveled abroad, I was not aware that we make even our closest allies, the British, pay a fee online before entering America. I would love to hear from foreigners on their border experiences.

corin_ 15y ago
Compared to flying somewhere where you need an actually approved visa, like China, ESTA is both conveniant and cheap. Given that until not long ago we Brits needed a visa to go to America, it's a hell of a step up.
- vidarh 15y ago
  It might be a step up from the visas, but it's a step down from the previous state with the visa waiver program and no requirement to fill in anything at all online.
  - arethuza 15y ago
    Didn't you have to fill in two forms on the flight (a green one and a white one) rather than one now?
    - narcissus 15y ago
      Not that I fly that often, but I don't mind filling out two forms when I'm on a plane. Knowing that I had to do an online application before getting on the plane... that was just a fluke that I found that out! I just don't like the whole "oh yeah, we have a visa waiver agreement with your country... you don't have to apply for a visa, but you do have to apply and pay to not have to apply for a visa..." I'm sure it's not like that in reality, but that's what it feels like to me.
      - buro9 15y ago
        You're lucky that you don't have to apply for a visa. I do, and it's not fun. I have an application in the works at the moment, started the process with the US Embassy on 28th October 2011, and here I am 4 months and 17 days later not knowing anything and no idea when I might hear. Ignoring all other points (2-6 hours in secondary being interrogated at the border), the endless process for getting a Visa is a real pain and a massive deterrent. It's not like this is my first time, I've visited the US more than 10 times and had visit Visas in the past. Nothing has changed, but each application still takes an indeterminately long time. I was hoping to go to a conference, but it's too late now, it's passed. Perhaps to also try and make some meetings with some potential business partners. The reality keeps coming home: Just don't bother. It's far more hassle than it's worth. If you get past the Visa (a gamble in itself), then you still have the border to look forward to. I cannot recall a single trip in which crossing the border was anything less than hellish. This, of course, is all anecdotal. But behind anecdotes are people, this is my unfortunate reality.

pan69 15y ago

Isn't that called Xenophobia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia

babarock 15y ago
Imho, it's not xenophobia as much as "foreigners don't vote, who cares about making things better for them".
- sambeau 15y ago
  Tourists bring lots of money which they spend in the shops, hotels, restaurants, taxis, etc of voters. Voters should be voting to encourage this.
  - kamjam 15y ago
    Especially given the current economic climate, you'd think they'd want every dime they could get!
- mjwalshe 15y ago
  And I think the lack of foriegn travel by a lot of US citizens has somthing to do with it. If you have gone on forign holidays and gone through customs your self you might be more understanding when your doing that job.
nodata 15y ago
No. Read the article you linked to.
canadiancreed 15y ago
I'd say it's a mix of that, protectionism, and 1930's isolationism being mixed into a healthy, toxic brew

krolley 15y ago

I recall reading somewhere that the reason that these ESTA forms exist, or the travel cards for Britain and Australia is that if you arrive and they found that you really _had_ a criminal record when you ticked the box that said you didn't, is so they can throw you out of the country for providing false information on the document, rather than for having a criminal record.

corin_ 15y ago
Sounds rather pointless to me, but if that is the case, how about moving to two questions: "Have you read all the rules?" "Are you breaking any of them?" Much quicker.

babarock 15y ago

My country is not a US "ally", so what I say may not apply to every one. One thing we get used to is the "step aside" treatment. When a border agent sees my Lebanese passport with "arabic gibberish" they usually react the same way. There's a little hesitation, (one time the agent even called her supervisor), then I'm asked to "step aside", go to a special lane, get a full body search from an extremely cold person following protocole to the letter. They will go through all my stuff, literally everything and after making sure I'm "clean" they let me go. I don't complain much though, it's just a funny ritual. And more often than none, the "step aside" lane is far less crowded than the regular one, which means that despite the intensive search, it's still takes me less time. On the other hand, one of my closest friends studying at Purdue University had a mandatory two hour stop in an interrogation room, every time he passezd by the airport of Chicago, because he has the mention "born in Beirut" on his French passport. "Randomly selected" they said...

sneak 15y ago
I carry a US passport from being a US citizen, and I get similar treatment every time I enter the country, due to refusing to answer their voluntary questions about what I do for a living, where I'm going inside the USA, what I do in the country in which I live (Germany), etc. They have to let me in and they know it, so they exercise their power by detaining me for 2-8 hours and going through all of my stuff. It's always a real half-assed search, too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
- billforsternz 15y ago
  Wouldn't it be easier to answer the questions in a friendly manner ?
  - bumbledraven 15y ago
    Wouldn't it have been easier for Rosa Parks to just go to the back of the bus?
  - sneak 15y ago

noonespecial 15y ago

Every once in a while I daydream about a government full of rationalists who one day say to themselves, "Hey, um, you know what would be a better thing to spend our money on preventing than terrorism? Cancer."

sambeau 15y ago

While the card-filling and pointless questioning is a pain the worst aspect of arriving in the US is the state of the US airports, specifically the facilities in arrivals. On my first visit I was unable to find a working ATM, was insulted by a surly woman running an info desk who was more interested in talking to her boyfriend and was accosted by numerous taxi drivers none of which seemed to be properly licensed. The experience was no different to arriving in a 3rd world country.

bobwebb 15y ago
Which city did you arrive at?
- sambeau 15y ago
  New York.
yardie 15y ago
LOL, have you been to CDG (Paris) yet?
- sambeau 15y ago
  I've flown to Nice many times and it's fine. Although, on the way out last time (when I had a proper beard) I was pulled aside by the security guy and had the following whispered in my ear: "I know who you are…" panic. heart in mouth. I'm about to be locked up (beat) "Nice to meet you Santa Claus!"

Dervall 15y ago

This is very accurate. As a Swede going to visit the US, a country which I love dearly, the last summer my main fear was filling out forms incorrectly or the airports security procedure. And Sweden is more or less a total ally to America, if unofficial, and a major trading partner. It's hard to find someone less threatening than a Swedish citizen. Which really is a shame, because in general Americans are a friendly bunch of people.

Radim 15y ago
I see your point. But on my visit to Sweden (one of the otherwise most beautiful and pleasant countries I've been to), I did find some "threatening Swedish citizens", first hand. I just wanted to point out that painting all your fellow-citizens with the same brush as yourself is perhaps too idealistic. The US may have their reasons for not absolving all Swedes from their customs procedures (silly as the procedures are). EDIT: made my experience more PC to stop the downvotes
ajuc 15y ago
At least you don't need green cards. Poland is more or less USA troyan horse these days (see Afghanistan, Iraq, missile defence, etc), and still to go to USA you need to participate in lottery.. I think it's somehow playing out for Poland good - it makes brain drain a little slower.
excuse-me 15y ago
I flew into Salt-Lake city when they decided that all 'foreigners' were going to be subjected to special security. Which meant putting us into a glass booth behind the x-ray machine for an hour while we waited to be `secured`. The only foreigners on the flight were me and an elderly women clutching an Israeli passport. But America (or at Least Utah) was kept safe from the threat of a very small UK-Israeli invasion. Although in SLC - even the TSA are nice polite smiling mormons.

etherael 15y ago

CDG airport in France has awesome security. One time through there after having put my passport through a washing machine by accident, when I asked if this would be a problem they just laughed and said no, no, not at all, it's very clean. Meanwhile, under no circumstances would I even consider visiting or transiting the US.

rb2k_ 15y ago
They do make your exit the security zone on layovers though. That's the reason why I try to avoid CDG if i can. Side note: All google servers are reachable for free over the wifi. (you can e.g. set up an app engine proxy)
emwa 15y ago
I recently had to change Airports in France from CDG to Orly when travelling to Barcelona for the Mobile World Congress. I had a Schengen Visa and on mentioning that I was on transit to Barcelona, they started demanding to see the invitation (Lucky I had it printed), whether I had some cash to take me Orly Airport, my credit card and a load of bullshit questioning by a guy who I could hardly hear because he was speaking very fast in a low voice behind the glass. I felt like asking him to speak up but felt like that wouldn't have ended well. After some moments he stamped the thing and threw it back.

hopeless 15y ago

I've avoided all conferences and work trips to the U.S. since 2003. Next year my wife's cousin is getting married in NY and I really don't want to go -- purely because of the hostile airport security It's generally not about the practical implications (there aren't any, most tourists pass through fine) but about the theoretical possibilities and the implication that I'm only visiting so I can blow something up, or that I've strapped C4 to my 4yo daughter who must be xray'd or patted-down.

swombat 15y ago

I deliberately avoid planning any trip to the US because of this. The only reason I'll travel to the US for at this point is if I have an overwhelming business imperative to do so. For example, I'd probably travel to the US to be interviewed by YC, if I ever applied. For pleasure? Not a chance.

lysium 15y ago
Same with me: For pleasure? No. Really overwhelming business reason? Maybe. I don't need to repeat my last experience I had (and I'm from Germany), let alone going through ridiculous airport "security".
masklinn 15y ago
> The only reason I'll travel to the US for at this point is if I have an overwhelming business imperative to do so. For example, I'd probably travel to the US to be interviewed by YC, if I ever applied. For pleasure? Not a chance. Don't fuck up your visa application though, a colleague did that (he got a business visa but the wrong one), was refused entry and — because it was during the Eyjafjallajökull event — had the chance to visit the US's penitentiaries for a week before they could put him on a plane back.

benjaminwootton 15y ago

On my recent trips to and through the US, I've been pleasantly surprised by how I've been treated at the border. All of the staff were extremely friendly and helpful - they seemed as though they were actively trying to create a good impression and reverse this perception. I'm a Brit, usually travelling via NYC.

cstross 15y ago

I'm British. I visit the USA 2-3 times per year and travel elsewhere quite frequently. I would rate the "welcome mat" as rather less welcoming than Yugoslavia during the Cold War (a Communist dictatorship). One annoying note: my wife and I did not change our names when we got married. On a couple of recent occasions we've travelled separately via different airports/on different dates, to rendezvous subsequently. If entering the USA separately on such trips, she usually gets the third degree: "why aren't you travelling with your husband?" There's serious institutional sexism at work in the immigration system. (Not just the discrimination against middle-easterners that we all know about.) One point to note is that ICE personnel live and work locally. So your reception varies quite dramatically depending on your port of entry. At Portland and Seattle, for example, they're generally polite, friendly, and about as reasonable as it's possible to be while working within an unreasonable framework. On the other hand, I actively try to avoid entering the US at Newark. The least annoying US immigration clearance experience I've had was in Dublin, Ireland -- the US immigration staff screen travellers by special arrangement on Irish soil (as on Canadian soil) and they've pretty much gone native. Alas, that means flying via Aer Lingus or Delta, which add other drawbacks ...

arethuza 15y ago
The only time I travelled into Yugoslavia during the Cold War (July '88) was rather scary - we were on a train from Italy and it stopped in the middle of nowhere and a troops appeared and surrounded the train. I distinctly remember watching them set up what looked like an enormous machine gun of some kind, which was pointed directly at our compartment. They then did whole "papers please" routine down the length of the train. Things got quite amusing when they got to my travelling companion as he had grown a beard since having his passport photo taken - so his facial hair was given a rather close examination and a sound tug or two. In my typically rather naive way I thought it was all quite exciting, at least until they got to some harmless old lady who clearly did not have her papers in order and the soldiers all got really very angry indeed - to the point where one took out his pistol and started waiving it around rather a lot. They probably shouted at her for the best part of an hour. Eventually the train moved on, but it took a long time and was very unpleasant.
- 15y ago

nodata 15y ago

I like the article, but the conclusion is wrong. Hiring even more border staff is not the solution. Common sense and logical decisions are the correct approach. Scrap everything else.

rb2k_ 15y ago

My (German) perspective on this: I've traveled to the US (always to Boston) a few times over the recent years. While all of the "take your shoes off" stuff is annoying, it's really not that big of a deal. The ESTA process can be done online and you can pay with your credit card. It takes about 15 minutes and 15 minutes after that you get an email. It's all a little bit annoying, but I don't feel personally insulted and so far it worked without a hassle. The border security people have always been nice to me and it felt more like a chit-chat rather than an interrogation. A lot of the process seems useless, but seeing as it doesn't take away all that much time, I'm fine with it. I've been treated way worse traveling to eastern european countries by car.

yardie 15y ago
Part of this may be your country of origin, part of it may be because you have ESTA clearance, and part of it may be because of the airport you fly into. As a US passport holder I'm pretty much done using LAX, MIA, and EWR.
- rb2k_ 15y ago
  I don't think you can actually enter at all without ESTA clearance
  - DrJokepu 15y ago
    You only need ESTA if you want a WT/WB (visa waiver) visa. If you already have another non-immigrant or immigrant visa and you meet the conditions of the visa, you don't need an ESTA. Also you don't need an ESTA for WT/WB if you're crossing the US border on land from Canada or Mexico.
  - yardie 15y ago
    I didn't realize the ESTA was mandatory. I don't have to fill one out and thought, because you pay a fee, it gave you some sort of priority. I see now this is for travellers on the VFW visa.
DrJokepu 15y ago

waterside81 15y ago

Here's some more anecdotal evidence about the nonsense of the ESTA form. My g/f is British, we live in Toronto. We flew to the US and her ESTA application from a few years back had expired. (Every 3-4 years I think, you have to renew). So at the airline check in, we're informed she'll have to re-apply. We though we were screwed but no, she just had to apply right there on the spot using my iPad and the airport's free wi-fi. Went to the ESTA site, filled out some info, paid the fee with a credit card and then proceeded to US immigration (which in Toronto, is in the airport itself). How much security could that form be adding if you can apply for it literally minutes before travelling to the US.

CaptainZapp 15y ago
How much security could that form be adding if you can apply for it literally minutes before travelling to the US. I heard from an American work colleague that a main point is traceability. You pay with a credit card and can fairly easily be tracked by that, while you're in the country. I'm not sure how true this is and I'm not a believer in whacky conspiracy theories, but it seemed rather plausible.
btbuilder 15y ago
I think you might be looking at this the wrong way. Credit card authorization occurs in miliseconds but is still a good anti-fraud measure. If her ESTA application had been denied, she would not have been able to travel and would have to apply for a visa at a US embassy. The pre-board checks for ESTA were performed electronically. I believe there's also a state where an application has to be reviewed, and that can take days to reach a decision. I don't know anyone who has had that happen though.

squadron 15y ago

My parents want to move to the States from Canada (long story) and it's staggering all the paperwork they need to fill out. One of the requirements is to document everywhere you have lived for the past 16 years, including home addresses. With all the places they have lived in Canada, it's taken them weeks to Columbo up the information. Myself, I've lived five places in 6 months about 10 years ago (another long story). Recollecting those times and places is something I'd rather not do.

graeme 15y ago

For Canadians, it is infinitely easier to enter communist Cuba than the United States. I passed through extra screening in Cuba once, because I had previously worked there, which made them nervous. The secondary screen was more in than speaking to a normal American guard.We had a great conversation, actually. We laughed, and talked about my work in Cuba. In the USA there seems to be a no laughing rule. In Amercan airports, you're treated as if you're doing something wrong by being there. The guards glare a you - it's very strange. For some reason, land border crossings are usuall better. So I try and enter by train or car if possible. While i've had 1-2 bad experiences by land, the guards are usually quite nice. The TSA seems to be the main problem, and their toxic culture has infected other airport personnel. I like Americans, but I avoid traveling to the country.

talentdeficit 15y ago
I fly into the US via YVR Vancouver approximately 18 times per year, and it's almost always a terrible experience. ICE officers are surly, impatient and unpleasant, even when there's no lineup and no urgency. There are exceptions, there is one officer who knows me on sight and always asks how my previous visits were. The majority can't even be bothered to make eye contact or do anything beyond order me through the fingerprint scans and photographs. Once, one accused me of hating America for living in Canada but doing business in the USA. By car, however, the experience has almost always been excellent. One border agent told me an extended anecdote about why Andrew Jackson was called 'Old Hickory' when I paid my VISA fees with a $10 bill. Another greeted me with 'you know weezy? good times?'. They seem relaxed, friendly and happy in general. There definitely seems to be a difference in culture between the airport personnel and the land border personnel.
- excuse-me 15y ago
  I think there is a natural air of doom over everyone who works at an airport. But US immigration at YVR is the worst. I think it's because they are forced to be in Vancouver while still working for ICE. It's like being forced to work at a soup kitchen inside a Purdeys chocolate shop!

wildmXranat 15y ago

I don't want to pile on with my complaints about travelling to the USA, so I'll just mention that I will not fly there for leisure or if it can be avoided. Living in Toronto allows me to drive across, which will suffice in most occasions. I came to this conclusion after a few unwelcoming treatments.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

acabal 15y ago

I get nervous every time I cross the border back in to America, and I'm an American citizen.

efalcao 15y ago

Even as an American, border patrol officers scare the crap out of me. I'm totally worried about stumbling on some dumb question and getting detained. I'll never forget my return from Mexico on the day before 9/11 where I was greeted by a border patrol agent with piercing blue eyes, leather gloves with cut-off tips and a big nasty snot bubble protruding from his right nostril.

mvip 15y ago

I'm a Swedish citizen and I travel to the U.S. a few times a year (to Silicon Valley mostly). I always dread going through customs. The TSA must have been rejected from any other job, including flipping burgers, before landing this gig. They are usually very rude and assume you are a terrorist until you persuade them that you're not. That said, it varies a lot between airports. I've flown through many different airports on my way to SFO, and the closer you get to the west-coast, the friendlier the agents (with individual exceptions of course). SFO and Seattle tend to be the most friendly ones in my experience. Yet, you're in a constant fear that you checked the wrong box somewhere, and they'll send you on the next flight home. For a civilized country, this is simply unacceptable. I wish all politicians would be forced through this process every time they flew, and I'm confident that this would change in no-time.

afterburner 15y ago
"The TSA must have been rejected from any other job, including flipping burgers, before landing this gig." This is the real problem I think.
waiwai933 15y ago
Just a small note—US customs and immigration is handled by the Customs and Border Patrol, not the TSA (which handles security screening only).
- mvip 15y ago
  Good point. You're right.

crusso 15y ago

The comments in this thread are really eye opening. I like the YC forums because they're very entrepreneurial and not full of a bunch of whiners. The fact that there are so many negative complaints regarding US border security is more than noteworthy. The TSA and Immigration are just so way out of control. Overall, I think that this is the result of a lack of consistent and sane policies regarding immigration and border control. On the one hand, we do relatively little to stop illegal immigration on some of our borders for political reasons. Then on the other hand, we flail madly in the authoritarian direction by having this massive and unchecked TSA bureaucracy. We really have no idea what we're doing on a national level. As ineffective and counterproductive as border security and immigration is here, I can bet even without looking at the numbers that it isn't cheap.

DanBC 15y ago

"They" will say that they're under constant threat of harm; there are people (not necessarily terrorists) trying to smuggle stuff onto planes or into the country, and that they have to maintain constant vigilance and being gruff, grumpy, aggressive is a technique they use to unsettle people carrying illicit items. There are obvious problems with that. Interestingly, the (much mocked) TSA blog lists some items they find each week. Very roughly, about 20 guns per week are taken as carry on onto planes. (http://blog.tsa.gov/search/label/Week%20In%20Review http://blog.tsa.gov/search/label/Week%20In%20Review) I have no idea how many people go through TSA each week. Nor how many guns (loaded or otherwise) they miss. I have no idea if any of the weapons they stopped would have been used for violence. But that feels like a very small number, when compared to the direct and indirect costs of the system. Note also the mission creep - they're very happy to list any drugs they find. (They do say that they're not looking for drugs, but if they happen to find them they have to report it.)

benohear 15y ago

There could be some value of filling in the questionnaire beforehand, namely to make you aware of certain restrictions ahead of time. Like the fact that you shouldn't be a genocidal terro ... OK, there really is no justification for THAT kind of question. But, for example, I recently smuggled a packet of Spanish Jamon into a Latin American country which completely bans bringing that kind of thing in. But I only found out on the plane, and there's no way I was going to flush 400gr of prime Iberico (which on top of it was a gift) on arrival.

hodder 15y ago

“The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men" - Plato

yaix 15y ago

> At Beijing’s glittering airport, travelers are invited to electronically rate their immigration agent. They do that in every gov't office in China and every (gov't owned) bank. All have these little things with buttons, where you can rate the service with one to five stars. I highly doubt that anybody ever looks at those numbers. More likely that a very well-connected dude has a company producing these machines.

steilpass 15y ago

I don't know if it still exists but for Germans the most "fun" question is wether we are Nazis.

ed209 15y ago

I made my first trip to the US this week, Austin via Houston from UK to sxsw. I had read various reports on the state of entering America, but it was far worse than I expected. I tried to find info about visas, but it said I didn't need one for what was practically a holiday. It was only when I got to the airport that I was told I needed a visa waiver. I fired up the iPhone and spent the best part of 30 minutes trying to fill out what is probably the worst multipart form I've seen since 2003. On arrival at Houston it seems a couple of other planes turned up. The end result was a 3 hour wait in line to get through passport control (Americans were caught up in this equally). Fingerprints, photos, 3rd degree about my visit - if they don't want me here, they should have said before I booked my ticket. After checking-in to the US, I had to go back through "security". That was another 1.5 hour queue. I opted out of the scanner, and they were pretty good about it a Houston. However, on the way back at Austin they make you stand in a ridiculous perspex shout it about the place and really make you pay for not going through the scanner. Over all, the experience I had is summed up pretty well by this article. I felt totally unwelcome, kind of like an 18 year old trying to get into an over capacity nightclub past a couple of bored bouncers who already took a dislike to me...

tokenadult 15y ago

Mark Vanhoenacker is a writer and airline pilot based in New York. I read through the whole interesting submitted article, and the one question I have is about actual numbers of tourist visitors to the United States. After the worldwide recession, tourism to the United States from other countries declined, http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Foreign-Tourism-Drops-in-United-States-92774799.html http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Foreign-Tourism-Drops-in... but the number of tourists has since recovered. The United Nations World Tourism Barometer http://mkt.unwto.org/sites/all/files/docpdf/unwtohighlights11enlr.pdf http://mkt.unwto.org/sites/all/files/docpdf/unwtohighlights1... reports that the United States is second only to France in the number of foreign tourism visits, and that the United States enjoyed growth in visits from the 2010 reporting year compared to the 2009 reporting year. The submitted article didn't mention statistics like this, but reported on anecdotes. I'm an American who has lived overseas. I haven't crossed an interational border in a bit more than a decade. (All other members of my family have crossed international borders since 9/11/2001.) I hope to travel to Canada by car with my whole family this summer. I fully agree with the author's premise that the United States ought to look as friendly and welcoming as the people in my community when foreign visitors first encounter a United States border official. But I can't help but wonder if this really matters a lot from the "attract tourists" point of view, if the United States has a continued growth in the number of tourists, and it is second only to a Schengen Area country that has a land border and rail connections with other Schengen Area countries in the number of foreign visitors it enjoys every year. Maybe most visitors understand that annoying security measures at the border are part of what make the freedom of movement inside the United States borders a palatable policy for many Americans who are more worried about terrorist attacks than I am.

grhino 15y ago
It's also possible that word hasn't spread enough among potential foreign travelers of the pain of the U.S. Border control. A lot of foreign travelers to the US may have not experienced recent border control at all, and so they decide to travel without any real knowledge about that. The "unwelcome mat" may be damping tourism growth by discouraging repeat visitors rather than outright discouraging all visitors.

colkassad 15y ago

I met and married my wife overseas. When we moved back to the States, I went with her while she was cleared through immigration in Newark Airport, NJ. We waited in an area with other people going through the same process. The immigration officer walked in with this disgusted look, sighed heavily, and proceeded to process everyone. It was appalling how he treated people, yelling at them to place their hand properly for fingerprinting, telling people not to talk unless asked to, etc. He proceeded to treat my wife like crap as well, until he looked over her paperwork and noticed she was travelling with me, and asked her where her husband was. She pointed at me and his demeanor changed immediately. He obviously wasn't used to being observed by a fellow American in his day to day work. I wish I had had the balls to say something to him, but as far as we were concerned, he was holding the keys to the kingdom.

tbsdy 15y ago

I tried to look at the ESTA form, but at the point where I read and agreed to the disclaimer, after I clicked on the Next button it wouldn't go any further. Not a good start!

user2459 15y ago

It's not an unwelcome mat, it's a go away mat. As an American who travels a lot the biggest hassle I've ever had to deal with when entering another country was putting my bag through an x-ray machine and filling out a form about fruits and vegetables. Whenever I get back to the states I see hours long lines of non citizens waiting to get through customs with way too few customs officers stamping passports. That alone would be an unwelcome mat, but put on everything else we make people go through and we're pretty much just saying "Go Away". Along with the fee and abusive questionnaire at this site https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/ https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/ we've also got this lovely informational site http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1262.html http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1262.html and tons of other fees http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1263.html http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1263.html . Then of course after you've paid all your fees and told the US government all about your diseases, mental illness, and intention to spy on them, you still have to give them your fingerprints, photo, submit to a search, wait in line for 2 hours, and answer many more questions about the same stuff. It's not xenophobia. It's full on we think we're better than you and you pathetic humans get to deal with us 'cos we said so. The whole system wreaks of 'cos we said so. Every citizen and border patrol agent knows it's excessive and ineffective, but we keep on truckin' cos hey, they're all just doing their, trained to be overly aggressive, jobs.

robomartin 15y ago

I have thought for a long time that part of the US tax code ought to be devoted to getting people to travel outside the US. A nice tax credit for foreign travel would open the eyes of our citizens to what lies beyond their town borders. I would see this as an investment in culture and not necessarily a subsidy. Maybe it's something you can use once every few years and not every year. This would do wonders for both the average US citizen's view of the world as well as the world's view of the US citizens. My hope is that something like this might just lead to more sensible behavior towards other cultures and peoples. What happens when entering the country is but one small example of the problem.

untog 15y ago
The American government just handing out money to foreigners? Get out of here, you filthy liberal. Of course, sarcasm on my part, but I'm pretty sure that would be the kind of reaction you'd get. You think of "investment in culture" as a good thing, many others see a liberal conspiracy.
- robomartin 15y ago
  The funny thing is that I am not a liberal. I'm not a conservative either. A sensible mixture, maybe. Traveling really opens your mind in ways that can't be quantified. I really think that our countrymen can be very egocentric to the point of bordering on ignorance. Understanding and knowing about other cultures is very important. I'd gladly support such a tax incentive because I am sure that it would pay dividends many times over in amazing ways.
grecy 15y ago
> part of the US tax code ought to be devoted to getting people to travel outside the US I think that goes against everything "the government" in America is currently about. Do they want you to know that many European countries mandate a minimum of 6 weeks leave a year? or that the murder rate in America is 10 times any other Developed country, or that the American school system is a train-wreck, or that..... etc. etc. I feel strongly that the whole point right now to is discourage Americans from learning about the outside world, lest they want to improve a few things at home.

MikeStall57 15y ago

I am an American citizen. My race is not white though. I have traveled all over the world, and have visited over 30 countries. There is no country that I am more afraid to enter than the United States of America, my own home country. When arriving in the United States I am rudely interrogated and treated guilty (of what?) until proven innocent. When I arrive in other countries, I'm told "Welcome". It makes me sad.

bryanh 15y ago

I wonder, did citizens immediately prior to the existence of the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany sit around in bars and have the exact same rational discussion that we're having here? Surely it can't get that bad, but it did before.

mongol 15y ago

This is a good idea. I have not visited the US in more than 15 years, so has not been subjected to fingerprints or this online form.. Do you think it is wortwhile for me to wait until rules change, or should I get used to the idea that the rest of the world will hold enough of interesting scenery for me to visit during my lifetime.

rickmb 15y ago

The painful part of the whole entering the US thing is not the bureaucracy or the security theater. It's the people. The whole system seems to be filled with people that are trained to make entering the US an unpleasant experience. Even when everything goes smoothly, rarely are people at the border being nice, polite and helpful as they are in most other countries. This is all the more remarkable since it is so distinctively un-American. Americans are probably the most friendly and open people in the Western world. Once you get past the border, it's a breath of fresh air compared to most European countries. So regardless whether or not the entire process is really justified, my main question is: what the fuck is wrong with these people?

whiletruefork 15y ago

My name is on the no fly list (well, mine and a million others). I get 'randomly' stopped by customs every time I re-enter the country through an airport. This doesn't happen at passport control but rather at customs. I've started leaving notes addressed "Dear TSA" in my luggage just to laugh at the expression on the agents face as they go through my dirty clothes.

tallanvor 15y ago

I can't even find the words to explain just how much I agree with this article. There are several times when I've been absolutely amazed at how horribly I was treated while going through boarder control, and I'm an American. --They even treat us like criminals, so the bullshit foreigners have to go through with ESTA, getting their fingerprints and photos taken and whatnot is beyond embarrassing. I live in Norway now, and when people I know are headed to the US, I actually feel the need to apologize about the treatment I know they'll receive, even though I wrote to my senators protesting a lot of these policies that our government voted in. I can only hope that one day they'll realize the injustice of what they've done. I'm thankful that most countries - especially countries in Europe, haven't been vindictive and forced the same treatment on Americans, although I wouldn't blame them if they did.

jwr 15y ago

I am a dual citizen (this includes US citizenship) and I was always amazed at how I'm treated when entering the US. It is as if the border guards were deciding whether to let me in or not! (Actually, I think this is exactly what they're doing) I mean, what does it matter where I'm heading in the US, where I work, or where my family lives? How is that anybody's business? I'm entering my own country, after all! As a comparison, in most European countries the passport control does two things, and two things only: a) determine whether you are a citizen (e.g. passport control), b) determine whether you are a criminal that needs to be arrested immediately. There is no other option. If you are a citizen of the country you are entering and they don't arrest you right away, they can't detain you, question you, harass you, or do anything else. There are no questions about where you're heading, where you work, what you do for a living. There would be no point in asking: as a citizen, you have the right to be heading anywhere, working anywhere, or actually not making a living at all. Land of the free, indeed.

DenisM 15y ago
They are probably trying to figure out if you are who you say you are by asking all kinds of questions that you know the answer for and an impersonator would struggle with. Not condoning they behavior, just pointing out.

teyc 15y ago

Leaving the US equally difficult. I went to a conference in Orlando and was planning to fly through LA to SYD. However, the DHS told me I had to report to the LA office before I leave during office hours, so I had to change my flights to one day earlier and spend the night in LA just to check in at the DHS.