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Your second point there has always been the thing that surprises me the most about the climate change stuff. Ok so lets say that climate change is fake. What do

Your second point there has always been the thing that surprises me the most about the climate change stuff. Ok so lets say that climate change is fake. What do we get out of going green? - Huge amounts of economic growth during a transition period that requires skills all up and down the skill ladder. - Significantly cleaner air and water which will save hundreds of thousands of lives each year. - Significantly cheaper electricity as the cost of the input to the system(wind, sun, tides, etc) are free. - Actual energy independence as enemy states cannot block our import of solar energy. I'm sure there are more benefits. The list of negatives is basically just: a bunch of people entrenched in the current system lose money and power. I just really struggle to understand how beyond those who'd lose money/power anyone opposes this transition.

wuliwong 3y ago
I would agree on the main point that either way, having cleaner air, water, etc. has its benefits beyond the veracity of man made climate change. I would disagree that it also causes huge amounts of economic growth and significantly cheaper energy. I think that it generally is more expensive to manufacture things in a more "green" manner and I think it is hard to beat nuclear for price per watt, despite what I hear bandied about in the discussions of Germany shutting down the nuclear reactors.
mhb 3y ago
Opposition might be based on a consideration that the benefits you cite don't outweigh the actual costs and the opportunity costs. Economic growth for its own sake is not a benefit - that's like saying that jobs are valuable.
Straw 3y ago
Unfortunately, it has significant costs as well as benefits: -What makes you think we'll get huge economic growth from building very expensive infrastructure? -An excellent goal, but we can get this for example with gas turbines which provide cheap, reliable power, or nuclear. - If renewables provide cheaper electricity, then we don't need to do anything, they'll dominate the market! Although they do provide cheap power when operating, reliable power remains expensive and people want reliable power. Of course this doesn't mean we shouldn't build wind/solar! - The US has energy independence with fossil fuels now. Its expensive to convert renewables to storable form, whereas fossil fuels can be stockpiled in huge quantities. The primary negative is cost! To give an example, a recent report estimated solar at $20/MWh, gas at 45, and solar with four hours of storage at 160! That's for electricity, the easiest area to reduce fossil fuels, but only 20% of energy consumption. Currently, 20% of US power generation comes from coal. Replacing this with gas would halve CO2, as well as providing huge air quality benefits. Just one example of a relatively easy small win that we have available short of green everything.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  8 minute energy is selling solar with four hours of storage to California for $40/MWh. If it's actually costing them $160/MWh, they're losing a lot of money!
  - labster 3y ago
    They’ll make it up in volume.
  - Straw 3y ago
    Perhaps California taxpayers make up the difference?
    - bryanlarsen 3y ago
      Sorry, I should have made the sarcasm more obvious. $40/MWh pricing is profitable for 8minute energy, their costs are less than $40/MWh. Anybody saying it costs $160/MWh is using outdated figures.
      - Straw 3y ago
        I'm having trouble believing that its that cheap- battery prices have not fallen 8x in the last two years. I believe the report I was reading was from 2021.
        bryanlarsen 3y ago
        The report is from 2021. The sources they used for prices are from earlier. 160 -> 40 is 4x. That's about 3 years worth of price drops at the rate they fell in the 2010s.
        Straw 3y ago
        According to this recent source, its currently 100-130 $/MWh: https://www.lazard.com/media/2ozoovyg/lazards-lcoeplus-april-2023.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/2ozoovyg/lazards-lcoeplus-april... And that's for 100MW solar with 50MW of 4-hour storage
hackeraccount 3y ago
opportunity cost

wuliwong 3y ago

I would agree on the main point that either way, having cleaner air, water, etc. has its benefits beyond the veracity of man made climate change. I would disagree that it also causes huge amounts of economic growth and significantly cheaper energy. I think that it generally is more expensive to manufacture things in a more "green" manner and I think it is hard to beat nuclear for price per watt, despite what I hear bandied about in the discussions of Germany shutting down the nuclear reactors.

mhb 3y ago

Opposition might be based on a consideration that the benefits you cite don't outweigh the actual costs and the opportunity costs. Economic growth for its own sake is not a benefit - that's like saying that jobs are valuable.

Straw 3y ago

Unfortunately, it has significant costs as well as benefits: -What makes you think we'll get huge economic growth from building very expensive infrastructure? -An excellent goal, but we can get this for example with gas turbines which provide cheap, reliable power, or nuclear. - If renewables provide cheaper electricity, then we don't need to do anything, they'll dominate the market! Although they do provide cheap power when operating, reliable power remains expensive and people want reliable power. Of course this doesn't mean we shouldn't build wind/solar! - The US has energy independence with fossil fuels now. Its expensive to convert renewables to storable form, whereas fossil fuels can be stockpiled in huge quantities. The primary negative is cost! To give an example, a recent report estimated solar at $20/MWh, gas at 45, and solar with four hours of storage at 160! That's for electricity, the easiest area to reduce fossil fuels, but only 20% of energy consumption. Currently, 20% of US power generation comes from coal. Replacing this with gas would halve CO2, as well as providing huge air quality benefits. Just one example of a relatively easy small win that we have available short of green everything.

bryanlarsen 3y ago
8 minute energy is selling solar with four hours of storage to California for $40/MWh. If it's actually costing them $160/MWh, they're losing a lot of money!
- labster 3y ago
  They’ll make it up in volume.
- Straw 3y ago
  Perhaps California taxpayers make up the difference?
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    Sorry, I should have made the sarcasm more obvious. $40/MWh pricing is profitable for 8minute energy, their costs are less than $40/MWh. Anybody saying it costs $160/MWh is using outdated figures.
    - Straw 3y ago
      I'm having trouble believing that its that cheap- battery prices have not fallen 8x in the last two years. I believe the report I was reading was from 2021.
      - bryanlarsen 3y ago
        The report is from 2021. The sources they used for prices are from earlier. 160 -> 40 is 4x. That's about 3 years worth of price drops at the rate they fell in the 2010s.
        Straw 3y ago
        According to this recent source, its currently 100-130 $/MWh: https://www.lazard.com/media/2ozoovyg/lazards-lcoeplus-april-2023.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/2ozoovyg/lazards-lcoeplus-april... And that's for 100MW solar with 50MW of 4-hour storage

hackeraccount 3y ago

opportunity cost