3 ms·

The only fair system is to make everyone pay in (near) real-time for the actual cost relative to demand. Everything else is ultimately going to rip off some par

The only fair system is to make everyone pay in (near) real-time for the actual cost relative to demand. Everything else is ultimately going to rip off some party (whether they are a party you like or not is irrelevant). Basic physics is fairly strict about all of this. Some of us were briefly allowed to do this in Texas (and presumably some other regions). I was on griddy for a few years and was strongly incentivized to pay attention to my consumption patterns. My bill "ticked" every 5 minutes. Nothing educated me more about how much power my appliances suck down than a proper, real-time variable rate plan. Any other form of conservation "education" is going to pale in comparison to real time economic pressure. If you had a lot of time to worry about money, you could make your power bill cheaper than a MVNO phone bill. The reason some think variable rates are broken or won't work could probably be traced back to the fact that very few grid participants (outside of a few industrial partners) are impacted by the actual, real-time cost of electricity. The thing that pissed me off more than anything was watching the politicians in my state cast variable rate plans as an attack on the poor. Nothing could be further from the truth in my own mind, but only if one is willing to explore the incentives & side effects at every step along the way.

danaris 3y ago
> The only fair system is to make everyone pay in (near) real-time for the actual cost relative to demand. That's only "fair" if you're limiting your view to the specific transaction at hand. The reason we try to make systems like this is because many of us recognize that when you zoom out, your definition of "fairness" has to change. If you look at the whole current socioeconomic system, it's very clear that it is not fair to charge a family of 5 living on a minimum-wage salary (or even two or three) the same amount for a basic necessity like power as you charge a Silicon Valley billionaire—unless the amount you're charging is zero.
- wyager 3y ago
  The only useful definitions of fairness are those that produce prosocial incentives. Your definition does not.
thereisnospork 3y ago
I would disagree with the fairness angle, it's perfectly "fair" to transact in terms of energy futures - e.g. pricing for the net present value of a kwh between 9am-5pm over the next month can be set by the market - much like how we do for corn or oil. Of course whether fully dynamic or futures-hedged pricing is more common or even dominant would be down to buyer/seller preference.
- bob1029 3y ago
  > would be down to buyer/seller preference. Exactly. Give me the option to play in traffic and I'll be happy. Let everyone else ride the more stable path if they prefer. As it stands, variable rate plans are now illegal in my jurisdiction.
paradox460 3y ago
The best thing I ever did for my electric bills was get solar and a battery. The second best was install smart switches and occupancy/vacancy detectors. Even with efficient lighting fixtures, having lights on in rooms no one is in wastes so much energy. When I got the sensors working I saw an immediate decline in my day to day use
- bonestamp2 3y ago
  Agreed. I put motion switches in all low occupancy areas of the house (bathrooms, hallways, closets, laundry room). Those seemed to be the areas where lights were left on unnecessarily the most and they're the areas where we're generally moving if we're there, so it has worked out great. For bathrooms with a shower, I set the timeout to 10 minutes so it doesn't go dark when someone is in the shower. If their shower is longer than 10 minutes, they get punished with darkness, so that has helped save water too. Everywhere else the timeout is 1 minute.
  - paradox460 3y ago
    Lutron actually has a switch package that can detect people even if it can't "see" them. I believe it uses ultrasound. Either way, you can poop and bathe with the lights on, and it knows your there For showers, I actually managed to find an ultra low flow shower that feels amazing, better than some high flow heads I've used in the past. I blogged about it here: https://pdx.su/blog/2023-01-30-a-good-shower https://pdx.su/blog/2023-01-30-a-good-shower

danaris 3y ago

> The only fair system is to make everyone pay in (near) real-time for the actual cost relative to demand. That's only "fair" if you're limiting your view to the specific transaction at hand. The reason we try to make systems like this is because many of us recognize that when you zoom out, your definition of "fairness" has to change. If you look at the whole current socioeconomic system, it's very clear that it is not fair to charge a family of 5 living on a minimum-wage salary (or even two or three) the same amount for a basic necessity like power as you charge a Silicon Valley billionaire—unless the amount you're charging is zero.

wyager 3y ago
The only useful definitions of fairness are those that produce prosocial incentives. Your definition does not.

thereisnospork 3y ago

I would disagree with the fairness angle, it's perfectly "fair" to transact in terms of energy futures - e.g. pricing for the net present value of a kwh between 9am-5pm over the next month can be set by the market - much like how we do for corn or oil. Of course whether fully dynamic or futures-hedged pricing is more common or even dominant would be down to buyer/seller preference.

bob1029 3y ago
> would be down to buyer/seller preference. Exactly. Give me the option to play in traffic and I'll be happy. Let everyone else ride the more stable path if they prefer. As it stands, variable rate plans are now illegal in my jurisdiction.

paradox460 3y ago

The best thing I ever did for my electric bills was get solar and a battery. The second best was install smart switches and occupancy/vacancy detectors. Even with efficient lighting fixtures, having lights on in rooms no one is in wastes so much energy. When I got the sensors working I saw an immediate decline in my day to day use

bonestamp2 3y ago
Agreed. I put motion switches in all low occupancy areas of the house (bathrooms, hallways, closets, laundry room). Those seemed to be the areas where lights were left on unnecessarily the most and they're the areas where we're generally moving if we're there, so it has worked out great. For bathrooms with a shower, I set the timeout to 10 minutes so it doesn't go dark when someone is in the shower. If their shower is longer than 10 minutes, they get punished with darkness, so that has helped save water too. Everywhere else the timeout is 1 minute.
- paradox460 3y ago
  Lutron actually has a switch package that can detect people even if it can't "see" them. I believe it uses ultrasound. Either way, you can poop and bathe with the lights on, and it knows your there For showers, I actually managed to find an ultra low flow shower that feels amazing, better than some high flow heads I've used in the past. I blogged about it here: https://pdx.su/blog/2023-01-30-a-good-shower https://pdx.su/blog/2023-01-30-a-good-shower