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Not sure why this requires GPS rather than odometer reading/reporting. IIRC NZ did (does?) odometer reading based taxation on diesel vehicles because so many di

by olliej 3y ago

Not sure why this requires GPS rather than odometer reading/reporting. IIRC NZ did (does?) odometer reading based taxation on diesel vehicles because so many diesel vehicles are off road only. That's fundamentally the same problem: you're ostensibly taxing road users to cover road maintenance (except fuel taxes don't cover the whole amount), and EV vehicles aren't paying those taxes but are clearly using the roads.

thedougd 3y ago
It’s a bizarre overreach. There are simpler, less invasive solutions than a GPS tracker. Maybe someone is getting rich off the scheme?
- millzlane 3y ago
  It would be easier and make more sense to just enact a road tax on tires.
  - angiosperm 3y ago
    Tires can be obtained via a quick trip out of state.
    - lockhouse 3y ago
      That’s true of most taxes. People buy gas and cigarettes at Native American reservations all the time. How many people pay sales or income taxes for a private sale? Lots of people do landscaping, farm work, and simple handyman work “under the table” without paying income taxes. Preventing tax avoidance is a terrible excuse for Big Brother surveillance.
      - angiosperm 3y ago
        It just means you want a better way to assess tax liability than buying tires. We are not limited to "tires or GPS"; we have myriad other alternatives.
        lockhouse 3y ago
        We could always try having more efficient government that doesn’t need to try so hard to squeeze every tax dollar they can out of the middle class. We wouldn’t even need to touch entitlement programs if we just got rid of wasteful pork spending and streamlined some of the bureaucracy.
        angiosperm 3y ago
        1. There is no middle class remaining. Tax revenue comes principally from the underclass now. You and I are in the underclass. The upper class (>$10M/y) dodge taxes. 2. Roads need to be paid for somehow.
  - bhhaskin 3y ago
    Or tax the chargers, just like they already do for the pumps.
    - nomel 3y ago
      For 80% of users [1], a "charger" is any 240V drier outlet. This would require making "unmetered" plugs illegal. [1] https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/hybrids-evs/can-electric-vehicle-owners-rely-on-dc-fast-charging-a7004735945/#:~:text=Research%20by%20the%20Department%20of,is%20convenient%20to%20do%20overnight https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/hybrids-evs/can-electri....
      - bhhaskin 3y ago
        That would be much better solution than requiring all EVs to have a GPS tracker that reports to the state. How long until they decide to start using that data for more than just taxes?
        nomel 3y ago
        > That would be much better solution No, not from a monetary perspective. It simply wouldn't work, and that can't be ignored. I think a workable approach might be having two options a person could choose from: 1. GPS (cheaper if you drive out of state often), 2. based on total mileage traveled.
        bhhaskin 3y ago
        Why wouldn't that work? We already do it for fuel.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        nomel 3y ago
        Fuel is metered at the pump. Electricity going into a car can't be metered at every receptacle. For this to work, the metering would have to be in the car, with some government regulated system included in the power management. I think that's doable, but not for existing cars. A GPS could be easily installed in to any existing car, non-invasively, and mileage is already tracked.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    License plate readers and variable rate tolling on all roads seems like the most effective solution.
theluketaylor 3y ago
NZ has the advantage that all vehicle miles travelled are within their jurisdiction. US states, Canadian provinces, and EU countries all have drivers travelling significant distances out of jurisdiction, likely resulting in inefficient taxation. With a simple odometer reading Utah would collect taxes on road miles that took place in Colorado, whereas Colorado has no mechanism to collect taxes on the wear and tear on its road network by Utah citizens. On the other hand, the idea of having a government tracker in my car all the time is beyond icky. I'd much rather overspend a little via a simple annual odometer reading than have a government agency with access to detailed location logging. A federal annual odometer reading that then distributes funds to states based on vehicle miles travelled and road network size solves the jurisdiction problem, but would never fly in the US as federal overreach.
- olliej 3y ago
  Farmers, construction, etc are required to keep their non-taxed vehicles off the road, if they're caught on the road with them they can be required to pay any taxes on the entirety of the odometer since the last sale. The cross-state-borders could simply require you to report your odometer readings on exit and entry to the state. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the majority of drivers would not care about a few dollars "extra" from some cross-state adventures, and those that do care can do the extra couple of minutes of working. Another alternative would be to require all car chargers (including those connected to personal solar) include meters internally and require the owners to pay taxes on those (which would be trivially integrated with pricing on commercial chargers, but there are plenty of non-commercial deployments).
JohnFen 3y ago
> Not sure why this requires GPS rather than odometer reading/reporting. The argument that they're making is that they only want to tax for miles driven inside the state, not for miles driven elsewhere -- and that requires location information. It's an argument that makes no sense to me at all.

by olliej 3y ago

thedougd 3y ago

It’s a bizarre overreach. There are simpler, less invasive solutions than a GPS tracker. Maybe someone is getting rich off the scheme?

millzlane 3y ago
It would be easier and make more sense to just enact a road tax on tires.
- angiosperm 3y ago
  Tires can be obtained via a quick trip out of state.
  - lockhouse 3y ago
    That’s true of most taxes. People buy gas and cigarettes at Native American reservations all the time. How many people pay sales or income taxes for a private sale? Lots of people do landscaping, farm work, and simple handyman work “under the table” without paying income taxes. Preventing tax avoidance is a terrible excuse for Big Brother surveillance.
    - angiosperm 3y ago
      It just means you want a better way to assess tax liability than buying tires. We are not limited to "tires or GPS"; we have myriad other alternatives.
      - lockhouse 3y ago
        We could always try having more efficient government that doesn’t need to try so hard to squeeze every tax dollar they can out of the middle class. We wouldn’t even need to touch entitlement programs if we just got rid of wasteful pork spending and streamlined some of the bureaucracy.
        angiosperm 3y ago
        1. There is no middle class remaining. Tax revenue comes principally from the underclass now. You and I are in the underclass. The upper class (>$10M/y) dodge taxes. 2. Roads need to be paid for somehow.
- bhhaskin 3y ago
  Or tax the chargers, just like they already do for the pumps.
  - nomel 3y ago
    For 80% of users [1], a "charger" is any 240V drier outlet. This would require making "unmetered" plugs illegal. [1] https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/hybrids-evs/can-electric-vehicle-owners-rely-on-dc-fast-charging-a7004735945/#:~:text=Research%20by%20the%20Department%20of,is%20convenient%20to%20do%20overnight https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/hybrids-evs/can-electri....
    - bhhaskin 3y ago
      That would be much better solution than requiring all EVs to have a GPS tracker that reports to the state. How long until they decide to start using that data for more than just taxes?
      - nomel 3y ago
        > That would be much better solution No, not from a monetary perspective. It simply wouldn't work, and that can't be ignored. I think a workable approach might be having two options a person could choose from: 1. GPS (cheaper if you drive out of state often), 2. based on total mileage traveled.
        bhhaskin 3y ago
        Why wouldn't that work? We already do it for fuel.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        nomel 3y ago
        Fuel is metered at the pump. Electricity going into a car can't be metered at every receptacle. For this to work, the metering would have to be in the car, with some government regulated system included in the power management. I think that's doable, but not for existing cars. A GPS could be easily installed in to any existing car, non-invasively, and mileage is already tracked.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  License plate readers and variable rate tolling on all roads seems like the most effective solution.

theluketaylor 3y ago

NZ has the advantage that all vehicle miles travelled are within their jurisdiction. US states, Canadian provinces, and EU countries all have drivers travelling significant distances out of jurisdiction, likely resulting in inefficient taxation. With a simple odometer reading Utah would collect taxes on road miles that took place in Colorado, whereas Colorado has no mechanism to collect taxes on the wear and tear on its road network by Utah citizens. On the other hand, the idea of having a government tracker in my car all the time is beyond icky. I'd much rather overspend a little via a simple annual odometer reading than have a government agency with access to detailed location logging. A federal annual odometer reading that then distributes funds to states based on vehicle miles travelled and road network size solves the jurisdiction problem, but would never fly in the US as federal overreach.

olliej 3y ago
Farmers, construction, etc are required to keep their non-taxed vehicles off the road, if they're caught on the road with them they can be required to pay any taxes on the entirety of the odometer since the last sale. The cross-state-borders could simply require you to report your odometer readings on exit and entry to the state. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the majority of drivers would not care about a few dollars "extra" from some cross-state adventures, and those that do care can do the extra couple of minutes of working. Another alternative would be to require all car chargers (including those connected to personal solar) include meters internally and require the owners to pay taxes on those (which would be trivially integrated with pricing on commercial chargers, but there are plenty of non-commercial deployments).

JohnFen 3y ago

> Not sure why this requires GPS rather than odometer reading/reporting. The argument that they're making is that they only want to tax for miles driven inside the state, not for miles driven elsewhere -- and that requires location information. It's an argument that makes no sense to me at all.