5 ms·

This seems pretty intuitively obvious to me - of course landlords, especially those who own for the sole purpose of investing (as opposed to someone who buys a

This seems pretty intuitively obvious to me - of course landlords, especially those who own for the sole purpose of investing (as opposed to someone who buys a duplex and rents the back), are going to charge what the market allows. I think Prop 13 is a good thing for the reason it was pitched for - you don't want old people on fixed income forced to sell their homes because property values are going up rapidly. Beyond that, though, it seems like it just extends way, way too far. Why should you get a huge tax break on a second home that you use for vacation or a property that you own solely for investment?

paulryanrogers 3y ago
Why not a homestead exemption instead? Benefits retirees without incentivizing housing as an investment.
- rcpt 3y ago
  Because Jarvis wanted to bleed the state as much as possible. > I think the public school system is a cancer on this society. The only difference between the public schools and the Mafia is that the public schools steal more money. https://prop13.wtf/2023/06/18/howard-jarvis-bestof.html#howard-jarvis-referred-to-the-california-public-school-system-as-a-cancer-on-this-society-which-manufactures-permanent-welfare-recipients https://prop13.wtf/2023/06/18/howard-jarvis-bestof.html#howa...
fizx 3y ago
If I'm an old person on fixed income, and my equity doubles from $1M to $2M, causing my property tax to double, I can take out a home equity loan against my house and be not only just fine on payments, but far ahead of where I was otherwise. This argument was also a lie.
- thatfrenchguy 3y ago
  Or the government just collects when you sell, easy.
  - idopmstuff 3y ago
    This is definitely the better solution in my view - I'm pretty against policies that force people to take on otherwise unnecessary debt.
- sethammons 3y ago
  you take the home equity loan against, presumably, a paid off house. That loan has to be paid back. You now have a payment where none was before. If you were still paying on the property, your new payment is now larger than it was before. Seniors on a fixed income cannot absorb that.
  - wmf 3y ago
    The loan is paid back by your heirs selling the house after you die.
    - sethammons 3y ago
      That loan has to be serviced and a loan company will want to take on that risk. So you are saying that old people should be forced into a reverse mortgage solution? How is that helping anything other than the mortgage industry?
      - wmf 3y ago
        Pay your taxes or move.
      - rcpt 3y ago
        The California Tax Postponement Program exists if you are distrustful of the banks. It predates Prop 13.
        sethammons 3y ago
        Which you are excluded from if you make over $52k per year. Only choice left after that is blinding oneself.
  - rcpt 3y ago
    Buy. Borrow. Die.
- rcpt 3y ago
  Even without HELOC the state of California has specific programs https://www.prop13.wtf/2023/05/08/california-tax-postponement-program.html https://www.prop13.wtf/2023/05/08/california-tax-postponemen...
- marcusverus 3y ago
  > This argument was also a lie. Huh? Your argument doesn’t debunk it. Your scheme doesn’t solve the problem, it just delays it. A person who utilizes your scheme has only secured their position temporarily by taking out a loan that they can’t possibly repay. When the cash is gone, they’re still going to have to move, and now they’ve been saddled with debt.
  - rcpt 3y ago
    > Your scheme doesn’t solve the problem, it just delays it Until we have a way to make homeowners immortal I think a temporary fix is just fine.
    - drewcoo 3y ago
      Sure, and it's ok for Tom Selleck to con seniors into reverse mortgages, too, because "now."
      - rcpt 3y ago
        I'm not sure what you're trying to say. But there is a targeted program for low income seniors, the California Tax Postponement Program. It's been on the books since 1977. Many states have similar laws, eg. the NJ senior freeze. Prop 13 is wholly unnecessary.
- foogazi 3y ago
  > If I'm an old person on fixed income, and my equity doubles from $1M to $2M, causing my property tax to double, I can take out a home equity loan against my house and be not only just fine on payments What is equity anyway ? If Bill Gates buys the house next door for 10M over asking now I need to “do something about it” ? It does not make sense to me Now if I “realize” the equity by taking out a loan I’m fine with the reassessment. But to be hit with an increase because people chose to do 0% downpayment loans is nuts
dilyevsky 3y ago
Don’t forget - commercial properties enjoy prop 13 as well. There was an effort to repeal it by zuck foundation in 2020 which failed
dublinben 3y ago
>you don't want old people on fixed income forced to sell their homes because property values are going up rapidly Why not? Regular turnover is healthy for both markets and neighborhoods. These beneficiaries of rapidly appreciated properties could sell their home to a new family, and take their profits to downsize to more age-appropriate housing.
- neptun3z 3y ago
  Exactly. When old people have no incentive to move out of their giant homes, there's less housing for young families, less reason to build senior housing, and home prices soar.
  - idopmstuff 3y ago
    They do have incentives, though. Maintenance costs are higher on larger houses and tend to increase with the age of a structure. You have to clean out all those extra bedrooms that are never used or end up with a bunch of cobwebs everywhere. That second story becomes much less practical when your knees start to go. If you want more housing, the solution is just... build more housing.
  - foogazi 3y ago
    Why not build more giant homes instead of taking from others ?
    - HDThoreaun 3y ago
      We have run out of land where people want to live.
    - duped 3y ago
      Despite being the largest state there's not a ton of room in the biggest metro areas for new housing - people are already packed like sardines between foothills, and going up into them is just begging for destruction due to wildfire.
aiisahik 3y ago
> "you don't want old people on fixed income forced to sell their homes because property values are going up rapidly" Yes you do. It's called downsizing and relocating. This allows for large houses near good schools and close to work to be owned by working age folks with children. Buying and selling is one of the ways the market reallocates scarce resources.
- sethammons 3y ago
  I'm having trouble getting my words out. Your view is so myopic and harsh. Communities need older folks. Older folks need communities. Having such a view, I can only assume you've never had a long time home. That you could walk in and force a person from a lifelong home because you feel there is some marginal economic improvement is simply fucked up. If the price goes up enough, they can choose to sell and relocate. Forcing that is wrong. Just because you want it more doesn't make it right to force someone to sell something. This is the same thought pattern as the people who get angry at handicapped parking lot spaces, "how dare those handicapped people exist, I could have used that parking spot better!" (not to mention the marginal added parking spot would already be taken by the time you are prowling the lot looking for a coveted space).
  - rcpt 3y ago
    Seniors and the disabled don't have to pay property taxes in California if they don't want to. The California Tax Postponement Program protects them. It's a fine policy.
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    The issue is that prop 13 has not caused "marginal economic" problems. It's caused absolutely fucking massive problems and is largely responsible for california being completely unaffordable if you don't already own a home there. The juice just isn't worth the squeeze here, the incentives are too distorted.
    - sethammons 3y ago
      Homes are not affordable anywhere people want to live. There is no prop 13 in North Carolina, and people are being priced out of our area. Same is true in Montana. Rents are not higher because prop 13, but taxes collected are lower. High rents and high cost of homes is a supply and demand problem. Move out to Adalanto or Victorville, CA and you can buy a nice house for under $400k. If you and a partner make $50k each, you can do it. That's is not unlike we did. We got priced out of California and had to move. This is an anti prop 13 article with some numbers: https://projects.scpr.org/prop-13/stories/housing-shortage/ https://projects.scpr.org/prop-13/stories/housing-shortage/ The best they can say is that Oakland has 3k undeveloped lots that could be houses. The claim is prop 13 allows them to hold onto what would otherwise be someone's purchased home. That wont even house 1% of Oakland. You could magically put houses there and the market price for housing wouldn't change. Being angry with prop 13 feels like being angry at handicapped parking spaces being unused. If the spot were not only for handicapped people, you still wouldn't have found parking there because someone else would have already taken it.
mattw2121 3y ago
I don't know exactly what the answer is. If a rental property has a long term renter, I don't want to see that tenant have their rent increased by huge amounts year over year. I'm a life long conservative, but I see huge value in making sure landlords can't kick out well behaved, paying on time tenants. I also believe that landlords should be severely limited in the amount they can increase rent at renewal time.
- CodeWriter23 3y ago
  This is what local rent control laws are for. And probably much better for it to be decided locally than at the "one size fits all of the Californias" Sacramento would inevitably come up with.
  - mattw2121 3y ago
    Thanks, but I live in Florida. I'm not familiar with rent control laws, since we don't have any. In fact, rent control laws are forbidden in Florida.
    - CodeWriter23 3y ago
      Prop 13, the topic of discussion, is a California Law.
- idopmstuff 3y ago
  The answer is just more housing, and at least it's starting to look like CA is making strides in that direction. The best protection for renters is a market where there's abundant supply - landlords will be severely limited in house much they can increase rent if a big rent increase means they're out of line with the market and can't get tenants.
rcpt 3y ago
It wasn't really pitched for low income seniors. The California Tax Postponement Program solves that and predates Prop 13. Other states have similar targeted laws, eg. the NJ "senior freeze". Jarvis was going for a "tax revolt" to punish the state. That's why Prop 13 covers all property and not just primary residence

paulryanrogers 3y ago

Why not a homestead exemption instead? Benefits retirees without incentivizing housing as an investment.

rcpt 3y ago
Because Jarvis wanted to bleed the state as much as possible. > I think the public school system is a cancer on this society. The only difference between the public schools and the Mafia is that the public schools steal more money. https://prop13.wtf/2023/06/18/howard-jarvis-bestof.html#howard-jarvis-referred-to-the-california-public-school-system-as-a-cancer-on-this-society-which-manufactures-permanent-welfare-recipients https://prop13.wtf/2023/06/18/howard-jarvis-bestof.html#howa...

fizx 3y ago

If I'm an old person on fixed income, and my equity doubles from $1M to $2M, causing my property tax to double, I can take out a home equity loan against my house and be not only just fine on payments, but far ahead of where I was otherwise. This argument was also a lie.

thatfrenchguy 3y ago
Or the government just collects when you sell, easy.
- idopmstuff 3y ago
  This is definitely the better solution in my view - I'm pretty against policies that force people to take on otherwise unnecessary debt.
sethammons 3y ago
you take the home equity loan against, presumably, a paid off house. That loan has to be paid back. You now have a payment where none was before. If you were still paying on the property, your new payment is now larger than it was before. Seniors on a fixed income cannot absorb that.
- wmf 3y ago
  The loan is paid back by your heirs selling the house after you die.
  - sethammons 3y ago
    That loan has to be serviced and a loan company will want to take on that risk. So you are saying that old people should be forced into a reverse mortgage solution? How is that helping anything other than the mortgage industry?
    - wmf 3y ago
      Pay your taxes or move.
    - rcpt 3y ago
      The California Tax Postponement Program exists if you are distrustful of the banks. It predates Prop 13.
      - sethammons 3y ago
        Which you are excluded from if you make over $52k per year. Only choice left after that is blinding oneself.
- rcpt 3y ago
  Buy. Borrow. Die.
rcpt 3y ago
Even without HELOC the state of California has specific programs https://www.prop13.wtf/2023/05/08/california-tax-postponement-program.html https://www.prop13.wtf/2023/05/08/california-tax-postponemen...
marcusverus 3y ago
> This argument was also a lie. Huh? Your argument doesn’t debunk it. Your scheme doesn’t solve the problem, it just delays it. A person who utilizes your scheme has only secured their position temporarily by taking out a loan that they can’t possibly repay. When the cash is gone, they’re still going to have to move, and now they’ve been saddled with debt.
- rcpt 3y ago
  > Your scheme doesn’t solve the problem, it just delays it Until we have a way to make homeowners immortal I think a temporary fix is just fine.
  - drewcoo 3y ago
    Sure, and it's ok for Tom Selleck to con seniors into reverse mortgages, too, because "now."
    - rcpt 3y ago
      I'm not sure what you're trying to say. But there is a targeted program for low income seniors, the California Tax Postponement Program. It's been on the books since 1977. Many states have similar laws, eg. the NJ senior freeze. Prop 13 is wholly unnecessary.
foogazi 3y ago
> If I'm an old person on fixed income, and my equity doubles from $1M to $2M, causing my property tax to double, I can take out a home equity loan against my house and be not only just fine on payments What is equity anyway ? If Bill Gates buys the house next door for 10M over asking now I need to “do something about it” ? It does not make sense to me Now if I “realize” the equity by taking out a loan I’m fine with the reassessment. But to be hit with an increase because people chose to do 0% downpayment loans is nuts

dilyevsky 3y ago

Don’t forget - commercial properties enjoy prop 13 as well. There was an effort to repeal it by zuck foundation in 2020 which failed

dublinben 3y ago

>you don't want old people on fixed income forced to sell their homes because property values are going up rapidly Why not? Regular turnover is healthy for both markets and neighborhoods. These beneficiaries of rapidly appreciated properties could sell their home to a new family, and take their profits to downsize to more age-appropriate housing.

neptun3z 3y ago
Exactly. When old people have no incentive to move out of their giant homes, there's less housing for young families, less reason to build senior housing, and home prices soar.
- idopmstuff 3y ago
  They do have incentives, though. Maintenance costs are higher on larger houses and tend to increase with the age of a structure. You have to clean out all those extra bedrooms that are never used or end up with a bunch of cobwebs everywhere. That second story becomes much less practical when your knees start to go. If you want more housing, the solution is just... build more housing.
- foogazi 3y ago
  Why not build more giant homes instead of taking from others ?
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    We have run out of land where people want to live.
  - duped 3y ago
    Despite being the largest state there's not a ton of room in the biggest metro areas for new housing - people are already packed like sardines between foothills, and going up into them is just begging for destruction due to wildfire.

aiisahik 3y ago

> "you don't want old people on fixed income forced to sell their homes because property values are going up rapidly" Yes you do. It's called downsizing and relocating. This allows for large houses near good schools and close to work to be owned by working age folks with children. Buying and selling is one of the ways the market reallocates scarce resources.

sethammons 3y ago
I'm having trouble getting my words out. Your view is so myopic and harsh. Communities need older folks. Older folks need communities. Having such a view, I can only assume you've never had a long time home. That you could walk in and force a person from a lifelong home because you feel there is some marginal economic improvement is simply fucked up. If the price goes up enough, they can choose to sell and relocate. Forcing that is wrong. Just because you want it more doesn't make it right to force someone to sell something. This is the same thought pattern as the people who get angry at handicapped parking lot spaces, "how dare those handicapped people exist, I could have used that parking spot better!" (not to mention the marginal added parking spot would already be taken by the time you are prowling the lot looking for a coveted space).
- rcpt 3y ago
  Seniors and the disabled don't have to pay property taxes in California if they don't want to. The California Tax Postponement Program protects them. It's a fine policy.
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  The issue is that prop 13 has not caused "marginal economic" problems. It's caused absolutely fucking massive problems and is largely responsible for california being completely unaffordable if you don't already own a home there. The juice just isn't worth the squeeze here, the incentives are too distorted.
  - sethammons 3y ago
    Homes are not affordable anywhere people want to live. There is no prop 13 in North Carolina, and people are being priced out of our area. Same is true in Montana. Rents are not higher because prop 13, but taxes collected are lower. High rents and high cost of homes is a supply and demand problem. Move out to Adalanto or Victorville, CA and you can buy a nice house for under $400k. If you and a partner make $50k each, you can do it. That's is not unlike we did. We got priced out of California and had to move. This is an anti prop 13 article with some numbers: https://projects.scpr.org/prop-13/stories/housing-shortage/ https://projects.scpr.org/prop-13/stories/housing-shortage/ The best they can say is that Oakland has 3k undeveloped lots that could be houses. The claim is prop 13 allows them to hold onto what would otherwise be someone's purchased home. That wont even house 1% of Oakland. You could magically put houses there and the market price for housing wouldn't change. Being angry with prop 13 feels like being angry at handicapped parking spaces being unused. If the spot were not only for handicapped people, you still wouldn't have found parking there because someone else would have already taken it.

mattw2121 3y ago

I don't know exactly what the answer is. If a rental property has a long term renter, I don't want to see that tenant have their rent increased by huge amounts year over year. I'm a life long conservative, but I see huge value in making sure landlords can't kick out well behaved, paying on time tenants. I also believe that landlords should be severely limited in the amount they can increase rent at renewal time.

CodeWriter23 3y ago
This is what local rent control laws are for. And probably much better for it to be decided locally than at the "one size fits all of the Californias" Sacramento would inevitably come up with.
- mattw2121 3y ago
  Thanks, but I live in Florida. I'm not familiar with rent control laws, since we don't have any. In fact, rent control laws are forbidden in Florida.
  - CodeWriter23 3y ago
    Prop 13, the topic of discussion, is a California Law.
idopmstuff 3y ago
The answer is just more housing, and at least it's starting to look like CA is making strides in that direction. The best protection for renters is a market where there's abundant supply - landlords will be severely limited in house much they can increase rent if a big rent increase means they're out of line with the market and can't get tenants.

rcpt 3y ago

It wasn't really pitched for low income seniors. The California Tax Postponement Program solves that and predates Prop 13. Other states have similar targeted laws, eg. the NJ "senior freeze". Jarvis was going for a "tax revolt" to punish the state. That's why Prop 13 covers all property and not just primary residence