4 ms·

From the abstract: > Controlling for percent of age >50 yr, percent male, percent white, median household income, and population density of each county, the hi

From the abstract: > Controlling for percent of age >50 yr, percent male, percent white, median household income, and population density of each county, the higher-altitude counties had significantly higher suicide rates than the lower-altitude counties. Similar findings were observed for both firearm-related suicides (59% of suicides) and nonfirearm-related suicides. So (median) income has been considered, in case anyone is wondering.

lm28469 3y ago
Which is dumb, what matters is the income of the person who commits suicide, not the median income of their county
- JimtheCoder 3y ago
  Getting income data from specific people can be hard...
  - lm28469 3y ago
    Harder than publishing bogus studies for sure
    - cykotic 3y ago
      We live in a world of imperfect knowledge. We look for patterns to try to determine cause/effect. The beginning process for this is to point out correlations and then further investigate. It’s not possible to account for all variables when it comes to things like suicide. It is possible and worthwhile to try to study the phenomenon as best we can.
      - lm28469 3y ago
        These thing end up on wikipedia and in dubious news sites as "Suicide is caused by high altitude", so yes it does matter a lot actually. It's poor science at best, if you can't control variables then the whole thing is next to useless, which happens a lot these days. At the end you have correlations, not causations
        Tomte 3y ago
        You never get causation from statistical procedures, regardless how well you control for variables. You'll always have to augment statistical associations with further knowledge of the world, so you can get to causes.
        cykotic 3y ago
        If we did science as you seem to think it should be done then very little progress will be made. You should read up on the history of progress in neuroscience. Metaphorically speaking; when you walk into a dark room one has to reach out and try to make sense of things before stumbling upon where the lamp is.
        foxyv 3y ago
        You may want to consider, how much that bogus science has set us back. How long have we removed tonsils, ate the food pyramid into Type 2 Diabetes, measured people's skulls for criminality, and convicted people on the results of polygraph tests? Bogus science can move us forward, but also backwards.
        cykotic 3y ago
        On the whole though you would agree progress has been made, right? In a world with imperfect knowledge you do the best you can with the information you have. The response to a paper ought not be, “This paper is bogus because they didn’t control for all variables.”. If the paper is bogus then give reasons for why this is the case. Was the statistical analysis wrong? Are there reasons why this can’t be true? Is this new information worthy of further investigation? It’s sloppy thinking to say it’s a bad paper without having studied the issue and the data.
        foxyv 3y ago
        > This retrospective study used mortality data assembled by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Retrospective studies are fairly rife with poor science. They are heavily limited by the data collected and can be easily manipulated by changing different controlling factors. While I wouldn't describe the paper itself as bogus. The title certainly takes a lot of liberties.
- cykotic 3y ago
  Higher median income places tend to have a fewer percentage of poor people. Probably some people assume poverty correlates to suicide rate. The authors did the best they could at making sense of the data they had. Here’s a map of suicide rate in Italy. Note the north has higher rate of suicide than the south. The north of Italy is much richer than the south. https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Ffzj18fcou0ib1.png https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Ff...
  - mjhay 3y ago
    As someone else said, it's the inequality that matters. People don't die by suicide from being poor, they do it because of the low self-esteem poverty causes when you're around many people doing better than you. Many very poor countries have suicide rates much lower than the US. Mountain towns have about the biggest class dichotomy that I've seen anywhere between the wealthy and the "help." Unlike many other places, they're all in close proximity.
    - cykotic 3y ago
      That is certainly plausible and worth looking into.
    - hunter2_ 3y ago
      I assume that mainly comes down to attractions like ski resorts (an activity that thrives on altitude and money) pulling in rich tourists and, more recently than this study, remote employees. Curious to hear other contributing factors for mountain town issues. And on the flip side: what types of locations tend to have the most socioeconomic equality?
- foxyv 3y ago
  This isn't too far off base. High levels of inequality lead to depression and anxiety. It isn't a great feeling to almost get hit by Maseratis every other day walking to the grocery store when you can barely afford the rice and beans you eat because your rent is 75% of your income.

lm28469 3y ago

Which is dumb, what matters is the income of the person who commits suicide, not the median income of their county

JimtheCoder 3y ago
Getting income data from specific people can be hard...
- lm28469 3y ago
  Harder than publishing bogus studies for sure
  - cykotic 3y ago
    We live in a world of imperfect knowledge. We look for patterns to try to determine cause/effect. The beginning process for this is to point out correlations and then further investigate. It’s not possible to account for all variables when it comes to things like suicide. It is possible and worthwhile to try to study the phenomenon as best we can.
    - lm28469 3y ago
      These thing end up on wikipedia and in dubious news sites as "Suicide is caused by high altitude", so yes it does matter a lot actually. It's poor science at best, if you can't control variables then the whole thing is next to useless, which happens a lot these days. At the end you have correlations, not causations
      - Tomte 3y ago
        You never get causation from statistical procedures, regardless how well you control for variables. You'll always have to augment statistical associations with further knowledge of the world, so you can get to causes.
      - cykotic 3y ago
        If we did science as you seem to think it should be done then very little progress will be made. You should read up on the history of progress in neuroscience. Metaphorically speaking; when you walk into a dark room one has to reach out and try to make sense of things before stumbling upon where the lamp is.
        foxyv 3y ago
        You may want to consider, how much that bogus science has set us back. How long have we removed tonsils, ate the food pyramid into Type 2 Diabetes, measured people's skulls for criminality, and convicted people on the results of polygraph tests? Bogus science can move us forward, but also backwards.
        cykotic 3y ago
        On the whole though you would agree progress has been made, right? In a world with imperfect knowledge you do the best you can with the information you have. The response to a paper ought not be, “This paper is bogus because they didn’t control for all variables.”. If the paper is bogus then give reasons for why this is the case. Was the statistical analysis wrong? Are there reasons why this can’t be true? Is this new information worthy of further investigation? It’s sloppy thinking to say it’s a bad paper without having studied the issue and the data.
        foxyv 3y ago
        > This retrospective study used mortality data assembled by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Retrospective studies are fairly rife with poor science. They are heavily limited by the data collected and can be easily manipulated by changing different controlling factors. While I wouldn't describe the paper itself as bogus. The title certainly takes a lot of liberties.
cykotic 3y ago
Higher median income places tend to have a fewer percentage of poor people. Probably some people assume poverty correlates to suicide rate. The authors did the best they could at making sense of the data they had. Here’s a map of suicide rate in Italy. Note the north has higher rate of suicide than the south. The north of Italy is much richer than the south. https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Ffzj18fcou0ib1.png https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Ff...
- mjhay 3y ago
  As someone else said, it's the inequality that matters. People don't die by suicide from being poor, they do it because of the low self-esteem poverty causes when you're around many people doing better than you. Many very poor countries have suicide rates much lower than the US. Mountain towns have about the biggest class dichotomy that I've seen anywhere between the wealthy and the "help." Unlike many other places, they're all in close proximity.
  - cykotic 3y ago
    That is certainly plausible and worth looking into.
  - hunter2_ 3y ago
    I assume that mainly comes down to attractions like ski resorts (an activity that thrives on altitude and money) pulling in rich tourists and, more recently than this study, remote employees. Curious to hear other contributing factors for mountain town issues. And on the flip side: what types of locations tend to have the most socioeconomic equality?
foxyv 3y ago
This isn't too far off base. High levels of inequality lead to depression and anxiety. It isn't a great feeling to almost get hit by Maseratis every other day walking to the grocery store when you can barely afford the rice and beans you eat because your rent is 75% of your income.