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In US, increasingly like Western Europe free speech is gaining the equivalence of safe speech. Speech where no one questions the authority or assumes the best o

In US, increasingly like Western Europe free speech is gaining the equivalence of safe speech. Speech where no one questions the authority or assumes the best of them. But first amendment was meant for hard speech. It wasn’t for speech that just merely assumes you have the right to go to a square and put up a sign. And in a culture like that, nation states can easily get away with this kind of behavior.

Eumenes 3y ago
Restricting speech is gaining popularity in the US too: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/07/20/most-americans-favor-restrictions-on-false-information-violent-content-online/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/07/20/most-amer...
- sambull 3y ago
  Crisis makes it easy. https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1597/free-speech-during-wartime https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1597/free-speec...
wittenbunk 3y ago
This is imagined nonsense.... The US has the most permissive definition of free speech in the world. Free speech is referring to freedom from government oppression, not freedom from societal consequences.
- FreeFull 3y ago
  Wouldn't you say that a police raid is government oppression, though?
  - nathanaldensr 3y ago
    It's not really a question. It is government oppression since police are government employees. Whether their presence is specifically to suppress speech is another question.
- brookst 3y ago
  Fairly outdated take. The US has elected officials openly using the power of government to punish people and companies for the “wrong” speech.
  - wittenbunk 3y ago
    Name a single example. Politicians using their political power (soapbox) is not the same thing as government oppression
    - tpurves 3y ago
      Florida's don't say gay laws. Florida banning books. Florida's reprisals against Disney. Florida's 'anti-woke' laws whitewashing the history of slavery and racism in the US.
    - papercrane 3y ago
      Probably not at the level that the commentator was referring to, but in New Orleans in 2019 an elected sheriff, Randy Smith, had a man arrested after he criticized his office's handling of a murder investigation. This was despite the DA explicitly telling them that the criminal defamation law they were trying to use was ruled unconstitutional when applying it to criticism of public officials. https://www.wwltv.com/article/news/crime/us-court-of-appeals-promptly-rules-in-favor-of-civil-rights-plaintiff-against-stpso-jerry-rogers-st-tammany-sheriff-randy-smith/289-a0413f88-f66e-4dce-b2a9-dd5b64829778 https://www.wwltv.com/article/news/crime/us-court-of-appeals...
    - brookst 3y ago
      DeSantis literally said he was using the power of the government to force Disney to change its creative output: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/03/desantis-promises-florida-will-control-disney-content.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/03/desantis-promises-fl...
- DrThunder 3y ago
  No... this is a police raid, that is the government. Secondly, the federal government has been breaking first amendment rights for the last 4 years at least; by pressuring social media companies to remove posts.
- Slava_Propanei 3y ago
  [dead]
jakelazaroff 3y ago
Is reporting on the police chief’s sexual misconduct “hard speech”? Who (other than the police) actually thinks such reporting is bad? The issue is not speech — the raid was illegal! — but rather that we have a cultural reverence for the police. We’ve insulated them from accountability so much that they can basically do shit like this with impunity. Who watches the watchmen? Mostly nobody. And a lot of us seem to like it that way.
- serf 3y ago
  >Who (other than the police) actually thinks such reporting is bad? there is a growing number of people who espouse the belief that grievances towards the police/government/military are by their very nature anti-patriotic, and there is a pretty real history of coercion towards 'under-reporting' on certain stories in the media; it's not real surprise to me that this exists on the lower scales of local municipality/etc, as well. 'chilling' is a very real concept, and it seems to snowball.
  - tb_technical 3y ago
    I view the opposite phenomenon occuring. The people you expect to be jingoists waking up to the idea that the cops aren't your friends...
    - gingerrr 3y ago
      It's going both directions - that's how polarization works, and this is an increasingly polarizing topic.
- sshine 3y ago
  > We’ve insulated them from accountability so much that they can basically do shit like this with impunity. Other countries protect cops more than regular citizens yet don't experience the same level of police raids and death by cop. I think the problem is rather that sheriff's departments in the US are run like small businesses; fining people, raiding and confiscating. Preemptive brutality is a sign that these people are not first and foremost protectors, but have to meet a quota. Mercenaries.
DrThunder 3y ago
Yep, western Europe and Canada do not allow free speech. I just read a story about UK police showing up and arresting an autistic teenager because she commented online that one of their officers looked like a lesbian. You have Michigan passing laws that people can face 5 years in prison for "offending" someone.
- daveguy 3y ago
  Would you mind providing references for these stories?
  - DrThunder 3y ago
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/autistic-teenage-girl-police-tiktok-b2391163.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/autistic-teenage... https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/michigan-can-now-censor-you-if-you-hurt-someones-feelings/ar-AA1cWTir https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/michigan-can-now-censor-yo...
    - daveguy 3y ago
      Here is the text of the Michigan law from the article you cited: "...willful course of conduct, involving repeated or continuing harassment of another individual that would cause a reasonable individual to feel terrorized, frightened, intimidated, threatened, harassed, or molested, and that actually causes the victim to feel terrorized, frightened, or threatened." I'm not sure how that is twisted to being "offended". News flash: intimidating, threatening, and harassing someone is illegal in the US and has been for a long time.
      - DrThunder 3y ago
        Next time just man up and say you don't like what's being said instead of pretending you want sources. Pay attention to this part - "individual to FEEL terrorized, frightened, or18 threatened" This is a subjective law based on the FEELING of the "victim". No one has a legal right to not FEEL threatened, what in the world are you talking about? Nothing is being "twisted". Don't gaslight me. If it has been illegal there would be no reason for new law . Either you're a moron or you have malicious reasons for pretending there's no implication to basing a law on how the victim feels due to things said to them. I'm guessing it's the latter. I have no idea how in the world a semi-intelligent person could not see that as a direct threat to the 1st amendment. I also like that you completely ignored the UK article which shows exactly what the Michigan law would result in. Have a nice day.

Eumenes 3y ago

Restricting speech is gaining popularity in the US too: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/07/20/most-americans-favor-restrictions-on-false-information-violent-content-online/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/07/20/most-amer...

sambull 3y ago
Crisis makes it easy. https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1597/free-speech-during-wartime https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1597/free-speec...

wittenbunk 3y ago

This is imagined nonsense.... The US has the most permissive definition of free speech in the world. Free speech is referring to freedom from government oppression, not freedom from societal consequences.

FreeFull 3y ago
Wouldn't you say that a police raid is government oppression, though?
- nathanaldensr 3y ago
  It's not really a question. It is government oppression since police are government employees. Whether their presence is specifically to suppress speech is another question.
brookst 3y ago
Fairly outdated take. The US has elected officials openly using the power of government to punish people and companies for the “wrong” speech.
- wittenbunk 3y ago
  Name a single example. Politicians using their political power (soapbox) is not the same thing as government oppression
  - tpurves 3y ago
    Florida's don't say gay laws. Florida banning books. Florida's reprisals against Disney. Florida's 'anti-woke' laws whitewashing the history of slavery and racism in the US.
  - papercrane 3y ago
    Probably not at the level that the commentator was referring to, but in New Orleans in 2019 an elected sheriff, Randy Smith, had a man arrested after he criticized his office's handling of a murder investigation. This was despite the DA explicitly telling them that the criminal defamation law they were trying to use was ruled unconstitutional when applying it to criticism of public officials. https://www.wwltv.com/article/news/crime/us-court-of-appeals-promptly-rules-in-favor-of-civil-rights-plaintiff-against-stpso-jerry-rogers-st-tammany-sheriff-randy-smith/289-a0413f88-f66e-4dce-b2a9-dd5b64829778 https://www.wwltv.com/article/news/crime/us-court-of-appeals...
  - brookst 3y ago
    DeSantis literally said he was using the power of the government to force Disney to change its creative output: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/03/desantis-promises-florida-will-control-disney-content.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/03/desantis-promises-fl...
DrThunder 3y ago
No... this is a police raid, that is the government. Secondly, the federal government has been breaking first amendment rights for the last 4 years at least; by pressuring social media companies to remove posts.
Slava_Propanei 3y ago
[dead]

jakelazaroff 3y ago

Is reporting on the police chief’s sexual misconduct “hard speech”? Who (other than the police) actually thinks such reporting is bad? The issue is not speech — the raid was illegal! — but rather that we have a cultural reverence for the police. We’ve insulated them from accountability so much that they can basically do shit like this with impunity. Who watches the watchmen? Mostly nobody. And a lot of us seem to like it that way.

serf 3y ago
>Who (other than the police) actually thinks such reporting is bad? there is a growing number of people who espouse the belief that grievances towards the police/government/military are by their very nature anti-patriotic, and there is a pretty real history of coercion towards 'under-reporting' on certain stories in the media; it's not real surprise to me that this exists on the lower scales of local municipality/etc, as well. 'chilling' is a very real concept, and it seems to snowball.
- tb_technical 3y ago
  I view the opposite phenomenon occuring. The people you expect to be jingoists waking up to the idea that the cops aren't your friends...
  - gingerrr 3y ago
    It's going both directions - that's how polarization works, and this is an increasingly polarizing topic.
sshine 3y ago
> We’ve insulated them from accountability so much that they can basically do shit like this with impunity. Other countries protect cops more than regular citizens yet don't experience the same level of police raids and death by cop. I think the problem is rather that sheriff's departments in the US are run like small businesses; fining people, raiding and confiscating. Preemptive brutality is a sign that these people are not first and foremost protectors, but have to meet a quota. Mercenaries.

DrThunder 3y ago

Yep, western Europe and Canada do not allow free speech. I just read a story about UK police showing up and arresting an autistic teenager because she commented online that one of their officers looked like a lesbian. You have Michigan passing laws that people can face 5 years in prison for "offending" someone.

daveguy 3y ago
Would you mind providing references for these stories?
- DrThunder 3y ago
  https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/autistic-teenage-girl-police-tiktok-b2391163.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/autistic-teenage... https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/michigan-can-now-censor-you-if-you-hurt-someones-feelings/ar-AA1cWTir https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/michigan-can-now-censor-yo...
  - daveguy 3y ago
    Here is the text of the Michigan law from the article you cited: "...willful course of conduct, involving repeated or continuing harassment of another individual that would cause a reasonable individual to feel terrorized, frightened, intimidated, threatened, harassed, or molested, and that actually causes the victim to feel terrorized, frightened, or threatened." I'm not sure how that is twisted to being "offended". News flash: intimidating, threatening, and harassing someone is illegal in the US and has been for a long time.
    - DrThunder 3y ago
      Next time just man up and say you don't like what's being said instead of pretending you want sources. Pay attention to this part - "individual to FEEL terrorized, frightened, or18 threatened" This is a subjective law based on the FEELING of the "victim". No one has a legal right to not FEEL threatened, what in the world are you talking about? Nothing is being "twisted". Don't gaslight me. If it has been illegal there would be no reason for new law . Either you're a moron or you have malicious reasons for pretending there's no implication to basing a law on how the victim feels due to things said to them. I'm guessing it's the latter. I have no idea how in the world a semi-intelligent person could not see that as a direct threat to the 1st amendment. I also like that you completely ignored the UK article which shows exactly what the Michigan law would result in. Have a nice day.