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A little off topic but why is it that whenever a Flutter/Dart topic actually gets some traction on HN the technology gets so much hate (might be too strong a wo

A little off topic but why is it that whenever a Flutter/Dart topic actually gets some traction on HN the technology gets so much hate (might be too strong a word but I can't think of anything better just now). For me personally, not a professional developer, and certainly for personal projects if not for projects that need to be cross platform, I don't see a product with less fruition/baggage. I'm not saying it's perfect but it seems the best there is, especially if you're coming at it without any previous dev experience. I get the Google thing. But dart/flutter do seem integral to Google going forward so I don't see them abandoning them any more than they'd abandon Go at this point. Could be wrong though.

deleted 3y ago
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white_dragon88 3y ago
The fact that you need to learn a niche language like dart just to make stuff in flutter seems to me like technical baggage I could do without.
- mhoad 3y ago
  I’m actively trying to move more and more of my stuff into Dart these days it’s actually an amazing language to work with.
  - sabellito 3y ago
    What do you find amazing about it?
- jononomo 3y ago
  Think of it the other way around: Dart was created for the sake of Flutter. You seem to think that the framework designers at Google just decided to pick a niche language called Dart to write Flutter in when they could have picked Javascript to write Flutter in. No. They decided to make the design of Flutter as a framework so clean and pure that they would have to work backwards to figure out what language it would need to be written in and then they created Dart. At least that's how I like to imagine it.
  - account-5 3y ago
    Wasn't dart originally a JavaScript replacement that never got off the ground, and older than flutter by about 8 years? My understanding is no one was using dart really prior to flutter due to that history. Though it was obviously pivoted for flutter. I don't have an issue with any of this though.
  - Slartie 3y ago
    As far as I know, Dart was created beforehand in order to "replace" Javascript. That did never work out, it never got any real traction, so Dart eventually stumbled around without any real purpose. Then Flutter came, used Dart (because they needed some language like JS, but not JS, and Dart was "there" and could be used because it was a Google product) and then Flutter started to gain traction, and so did Dart, but only as a side effect of Flutter now being the only real "user" of the language.
    - g8oz 3y ago
      Apart from Flutter another "user" I'm aware of is the reference implementation of Sass (the CSS preprocessor language), which is now written in Dart. https://sass-lang.com/ https://sass-lang.com/
  - matt_trentini 3y ago
    I'm afraid you are imagining it. Dart pre-dates Flutter by a few years and had failed (a couple of times) as a web development language before Flutter chose to employ it. Would Dart be around today, outside of Google if not for Flutter? Seems unlikely. Flutter indeed did decide to pick a niche language, albeit one that was used internally at Google. Tim Sneath discusses it on Software Engineering Radio: https://www.se-radio.net/2020/12/episode-437-tim-sneath-on-architecture-of-flutter/ https://www.se-radio.net/2020/12/episode-437-tim-sneath-on-a...
- cageface 3y ago
  The plus side is that Google can develop Dart alongside the framework. This allows some nice things like excellent hot loading support, fast AOT compilation for release builds, a GC tuned for UI work, etc that would be harder or even impossible in a general purpose language with different goals. It's also a pretty easy language to learn if you're already familiar with any other modern mainstream language.
OJFord 3y ago
Go is well past the point of it mattering whether Google continues to use it or not. I don't think Dart or Flutter are. And Dart's more of a barrier to that level of adoption than Flutter itself (if it were somehow language-agnostic, or a multi-platform JS framework even). Tauri has mobile support coming, and once it does with some level of polish, it's harder to imagine Flutter ever getting that popular? It would be trying to convince 'this is a great framework, this is the one you should choose [but sorry you need to learn Dart]' versus 'use whatever [JS] framework you want, you probably already have a favourite'.
- jononomo 3y ago
  > but sorry you need to learn Dart At this point in my career I'm definitely not intimidated by having to pick up some new syntax -- especially if it is straightforward and sensible.
  - OJFord 3y ago
    Me neither (and I only really have 'it's basically the same as [take your pick]' level familiarity with JS/TS anyway) but I bet my manager planning the hypothetical multi-platform project would be. It means it's either greenfield or a re-write. It probably affects hiring even if I think we'd agree it shouldn't. And it's not just 'learning' it, the language itself, it's library availability and the general ecosystem. Which is obviously a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem or tautological even that '~nobody wants to use it because ~nobody uses it'.
    - jwells89 3y ago
      > And it's not just 'learning' it, the language itself, it's library availability and the general ecosystem. Exactly, there’s a whole universe in a bottle that comes with each language, and I think that is what is the largest source of friction these days when developers consider using a language, especially when the language has little to nothing unique to offer in exchange.
  - kryptiskt 3y ago
progval 3y ago
As a desktop user I dislike Flutter apps because they have high input latency (at least in Firefox), and their UI is always mobile-first so it strongly clashes with expectations and capabilities of a desktop.
- cageface 3y ago
  You mean Flutter web apps? The web version of Flutter is not as mature as the other platforms. It's nice to have as an option but I wouldn't choose Flutter today if the web is your primary deployment target.
- Daedren 3y ago
  UI being mobile-first is a beef you have with the designers and product owners who are neglecting the desktop experience, not with the techonology.

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white_dragon88 3y ago

The fact that you need to learn a niche language like dart just to make stuff in flutter seems to me like technical baggage I could do without.

mhoad 3y ago
I’m actively trying to move more and more of my stuff into Dart these days it’s actually an amazing language to work with.
- sabellito 3y ago
  What do you find amazing about it?
jononomo 3y ago
Think of it the other way around: Dart was created for the sake of Flutter. You seem to think that the framework designers at Google just decided to pick a niche language called Dart to write Flutter in when they could have picked Javascript to write Flutter in. No. They decided to make the design of Flutter as a framework so clean and pure that they would have to work backwards to figure out what language it would need to be written in and then they created Dart. At least that's how I like to imagine it.
- account-5 3y ago
  Wasn't dart originally a JavaScript replacement that never got off the ground, and older than flutter by about 8 years? My understanding is no one was using dart really prior to flutter due to that history. Though it was obviously pivoted for flutter. I don't have an issue with any of this though.
- Slartie 3y ago
  As far as I know, Dart was created beforehand in order to "replace" Javascript. That did never work out, it never got any real traction, so Dart eventually stumbled around without any real purpose. Then Flutter came, used Dart (because they needed some language like JS, but not JS, and Dart was "there" and could be used because it was a Google product) and then Flutter started to gain traction, and so did Dart, but only as a side effect of Flutter now being the only real "user" of the language.
  - g8oz 3y ago
    Apart from Flutter another "user" I'm aware of is the reference implementation of Sass (the CSS preprocessor language), which is now written in Dart. https://sass-lang.com/ https://sass-lang.com/
- matt_trentini 3y ago
  I'm afraid you are imagining it. Dart pre-dates Flutter by a few years and had failed (a couple of times) as a web development language before Flutter chose to employ it. Would Dart be around today, outside of Google if not for Flutter? Seems unlikely. Flutter indeed did decide to pick a niche language, albeit one that was used internally at Google. Tim Sneath discusses it on Software Engineering Radio: https://www.se-radio.net/2020/12/episode-437-tim-sneath-on-architecture-of-flutter/ https://www.se-radio.net/2020/12/episode-437-tim-sneath-on-a...
cageface 3y ago
The plus side is that Google can develop Dart alongside the framework. This allows some nice things like excellent hot loading support, fast AOT compilation for release builds, a GC tuned for UI work, etc that would be harder or even impossible in a general purpose language with different goals. It's also a pretty easy language to learn if you're already familiar with any other modern mainstream language.

OJFord 3y ago

Go is well past the point of it mattering whether Google continues to use it or not. I don't think Dart or Flutter are. And Dart's more of a barrier to that level of adoption than Flutter itself (if it were somehow language-agnostic, or a multi-platform JS framework even). Tauri has mobile support coming, and once it does with some level of polish, it's harder to imagine Flutter ever getting that popular? It would be trying to convince 'this is a great framework, this is the one you should choose [but sorry you need to learn Dart]' versus 'use whatever [JS] framework you want, you probably already have a favourite'.

jononomo 3y ago
> but sorry you need to learn Dart At this point in my career I'm definitely not intimidated by having to pick up some new syntax -- especially if it is straightforward and sensible.
- OJFord 3y ago
  Me neither (and I only really have 'it's basically the same as [take your pick]' level familiarity with JS/TS anyway) but I bet my manager planning the hypothetical multi-platform project would be. It means it's either greenfield or a re-write. It probably affects hiring even if I think we'd agree it shouldn't. And it's not just 'learning' it, the language itself, it's library availability and the general ecosystem. Which is obviously a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem or tautological even that '~nobody wants to use it because ~nobody uses it'.
  - jwells89 3y ago
    > And it's not just 'learning' it, the language itself, it's library availability and the general ecosystem. Exactly, there’s a whole universe in a bottle that comes with each language, and I think that is what is the largest source of friction these days when developers consider using a language, especially when the language has little to nothing unique to offer in exchange.
- kryptiskt 3y ago

progval 3y ago

As a desktop user I dislike Flutter apps because they have high input latency (at least in Firefox), and their UI is always mobile-first so it strongly clashes with expectations and capabilities of a desktop.

cageface 3y ago
You mean Flutter web apps? The web version of Flutter is not as mature as the other platforms. It's nice to have as an option but I wouldn't choose Flutter today if the web is your primary deployment target.
Daedren 3y ago
UI being mobile-first is a beef you have with the designers and product owners who are neglecting the desktop experience, not with the techonology.