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If I look to nations that are the most bullish when it comes to positive human rights they beat most other nations in nearly every human-centric metric conceiva

by atoav 3y ago

If I look to nations that are the most bullish when it comes to positive human rights they beat most other nations in nearly every human-centric metric conceivable. Last time I have been in Copenhagen it didn't look like they were worse off for doing all that positive right stuff — quite the opposite, I'd choose Copenhagen over literally every US city every day. I know the US is good at pretending their problems are so unique that all the rational and numbers-based approaches everywhere else in the world won't fly, but in my eyes you either want to live in a society and want it to be good or you pretend you don't live inside one and deal with the consequences. The former gives me a happier life, the latter gives me dystopian vibes and a bit more on the bank account so my choice should be clear.

SllX 3y ago
Sure, but Denmark does have a different culture. Even most European countries are different from Denmark. We value property differently. We value entrepreneurship differently. We are a military superpower and provide most of the muscle in NATO that both the US and Denmark are part of. We have a larger border with both of our immediate neighbors. There isn’t a North American equivalent of the Schengen Area. We’re a lot more religious despite not having a State religion. Our Head of State is not Royal, but an elected position that churns every 4 to 8 years. We’re not a unitary State, but a Federation of 50 States, each with their own laws and histories and yeah, culturally we take that seriously here. We don’t even have a single Parliament, and our legislature does not function like one. Denmark is 86% people of Danish descent, while Americans aren’t 86% anything in particular, ethnically nor racially. No matter how you slice it, the differences do define us, much like the differences between Japan and Denmark or Australia and Denmark. As I already pointed out, America has lawfully implemented some forms of what are called positive rights, but what those look like do not closely resemble the Danish analogues, and one of those differences is how much we disagree with each other as much as we disagree with the rest of the world, but hey, one if the nicer things about the world we live in is if you find a place you like more, it’s often possible to just go live there, provided you subject yourself to the requirements of the locals and there’s nothing wrong with that. :)
- ttonkytonk 3y ago
  There is nowhere to go for Americans who have become completely disenfranchised. I read recently that many political philosophers think the U.S. has become a (de facto) oligarchy. In Republic book eight 552 it's argued that oligarchies "admit the greatest of all evils... Allowing someone to sell all his possessions and someone else to buy them...". Now this is particularly true in regards to land (which even when "owned" is essentially rented from the government in the form of property taxes). I don't know the history but I've seen hints that much of this land acquisition was pretty coercive. I think it's difficult for many Americans to admit this because their thinking is biased in the same way that someone becomes biased about a person they love - no matter what anybody tells them, "loving eyes never see". Only the love here is the love of "the good life" - the materially rich one.
  - SllX 3y ago
    Yes, we (which is to say those of us of European descent) conquered much of our land, and also purchased lands that others conquered, and yes made some odd trades for land with cultures that didn’t understand our (as in historically Christendom’s) conception of property ownership and trade, but what does that have to do with this discussion vis a vis positive rights? We’re not discussing property rights, so please make the connection to this discussion since I’m afraid I’m not seeing it.
    - ttonkytonk 3y ago
      A place to live is not only a positive but a natural right.
      - SllX 3y ago
        If you want to argue against homelessness, I’m not the one you need to convince, but as stated above you cannot effectively conjecture a positive right into existence merely by claiming that it is a right. Positive rights are lawfully agreed upon, even public education has its own basis in statutes or written constitutional laws.

by atoav 3y ago

SllX 3y ago

Sure, but Denmark does have a different culture. Even most European countries are different from Denmark. We value property differently. We value entrepreneurship differently. We are a military superpower and provide most of the muscle in NATO that both the US and Denmark are part of. We have a larger border with both of our immediate neighbors. There isn’t a North American equivalent of the Schengen Area. We’re a lot more religious despite not having a State religion. Our Head of State is not Royal, but an elected position that churns every 4 to 8 years. We’re not a unitary State, but a Federation of 50 States, each with their own laws and histories and yeah, culturally we take that seriously here. We don’t even have a single Parliament, and our legislature does not function like one. Denmark is 86% people of Danish descent, while Americans aren’t 86% anything in particular, ethnically nor racially. No matter how you slice it, the differences do define us, much like the differences between Japan and Denmark or Australia and Denmark. As I already pointed out, America has lawfully implemented some forms of what are called positive rights, but what those look like do not closely resemble the Danish analogues, and one of those differences is how much we disagree with each other as much as we disagree with the rest of the world, but hey, one if the nicer things about the world we live in is if you find a place you like more, it’s often possible to just go live there, provided you subject yourself to the requirements of the locals and there’s nothing wrong with that. :)

ttonkytonk 3y ago
There is nowhere to go for Americans who have become completely disenfranchised. I read recently that many political philosophers think the U.S. has become a (de facto) oligarchy. In Republic book eight 552 it's argued that oligarchies "admit the greatest of all evils... Allowing someone to sell all his possessions and someone else to buy them...". Now this is particularly true in regards to land (which even when "owned" is essentially rented from the government in the form of property taxes). I don't know the history but I've seen hints that much of this land acquisition was pretty coercive. I think it's difficult for many Americans to admit this because their thinking is biased in the same way that someone becomes biased about a person they love - no matter what anybody tells them, "loving eyes never see". Only the love here is the love of "the good life" - the materially rich one.
- SllX 3y ago
  Yes, we (which is to say those of us of European descent) conquered much of our land, and also purchased lands that others conquered, and yes made some odd trades for land with cultures that didn’t understand our (as in historically Christendom’s) conception of property ownership and trade, but what does that have to do with this discussion vis a vis positive rights? We’re not discussing property rights, so please make the connection to this discussion since I’m afraid I’m not seeing it.
  - ttonkytonk 3y ago
    A place to live is not only a positive but a natural right.
    - SllX 3y ago
      If you want to argue against homelessness, I’m not the one you need to convince, but as stated above you cannot effectively conjecture a positive right into existence merely by claiming that it is a right. Positive rights are lawfully agreed upon, even public education has its own basis in statutes or written constitutional laws.