12 ms·

Without Elon all of the things would have happened - he just jumped in and siphoned wealth via public funding. His companies did great - he didn't.

Gud 3y ago
That’s not at all a given. To bootstrap mass production of electric cars requires a lot of risk, it was by no means certain it would pan out. Now that it’s a given the rest of the car manufacturers are racing to keep up. Same can be said with reusable rockets - why weren’t anyone else pursuing this? I think I know the answer(weak leadership from ULA etc).
RetroTechie 3y ago
solardev summarized my opinion of Musk pretty well. I don't know enough about the space industry. SpaceX did introduce some pretty significant advances. But EVs: yeah they would have happened - eventually. Big car makers sat on their asses (concerning EVs), and would have kept doing so for another 5..10y or longer. Tesla took the lead, broke that market wide open, scaled up battery production enormously (which also served other applications like grid storage), and forced car makers to get in on the game or be left behind. Those car makers would have produced EVs on their own. On their timeline. But Musk kickstarted that market on his timeline. Years sooner than would have happened otherwise. Debate how many years all you want. But net effect is an enormous benefit to society. Personally, I think it may come down to stress / pressure. Musk has worked hard, for a long time. Maybe he didn't get enough sleep. Or didn't get laid (often enough, anyway :-). NOT saying he did, but if it turns out he's been popping pills or snorting coke, I would be neither surprised nor hold it against him (or even care, tbh). Regardless, such pressure tends to bring up the darker side in people. But who am I to tell Musk he needs a vacation? Fun fact: bought a pack of 70 Li-ions recently (21700) for use on my boat. These were manufactured and/or designed by Samsung... for Tesla. I didn't buy them 'cause Tesla fanboy. They're not even the chemistry I preferred. But I got 'em because they worked out to the lowest price per Wh stored (in my case, ~800 Wh total for just over €100). Tesla-initiated economies of scale. And in the meanwhile, there's now global internet access thx to StarLink. Like him or not, feel free to think he's a lunatic or an asshole, but Elon Musk has pushed humanity forward.
solardev 3y ago
When? EVs were dead in the water for decades until Tesla. Space travel has stalled since the Cold War. Satellite internet... DirecTV was a joke that used dialup or DSL upstream. A lot of industries are driven by the difficulties of operations, not necessarily innovations. He jumpstarted all three where even nation states could not. To this day I can't get better satellite internet from any other company, all electric cars are still measured against Teslas (even though I'd prefer a Rivian or Subaru/Toyota myself), and SpaceX is the doing more launch development than the US, China, and Russia combined. That doesn't make him a great inventor, perhaps, but it does make him a great something... businessman, organizer, dreamer perhaps? No one's accusing him of singlehandedly advancing science or anything like that. But he did tackle three very difficult and capital and labor and logistics and legal problems and made them all a reality where many other companies and countries have tried and failed (and continue to lag behind). Those aren't trivial accomplishments and we'd be lucky to see any of them in a generation, much less all three from the same person. There is no guarantee another person could've done all that, not even a president.
- deprecative 3y ago
  He didn't found Tesla. He didn't invent the EV. SpaceX is doing great work. That same talent would have been available in the market for hire by anyone if SpaceX hadn't been around. He didn't invent satellite Internet connectivity. I don't understand this hero worship that goes on in the tech sphere for a known grifter who thrives on Daddy's money and taxpayer subsidies.
  - solardev 3y ago
    At the risk of sounding repetitive, I have to point out that it's not about what he innovated or invented, but his ability to organize capital and labor behind these projects where others couldn't. You keep saying anyone could've, but the fact is they didn't and still don't. Armadillo, Blue Origin, Virgin, NASA, all gave up or remain bit players. None of them invented rockets, any could've hired engineers, but SpaceX is the only one that actually made all that happen. And on automotive front, the big car markers are STILL playing catchup. No one is saying Musk is a great inventor, or even an inventor at all. Just that he successfully organized others into worthwhile projects. It's not hero worship, it's giving credit where it's due. Compare Musk to someone like Trump or Ellison or Zuckerberg or your average crypto bro founder. He's contributed far more to society by taking huge risks in industries that others had already given up on. Not every rich asshole does that.

Gud 3y ago

That’s not at all a given. To bootstrap mass production of electric cars requires a lot of risk, it was by no means certain it would pan out. Now that it’s a given the rest of the car manufacturers are racing to keep up. Same can be said with reusable rockets - why weren’t anyone else pursuing this? I think I know the answer(weak leadership from ULA etc).

RetroTechie 3y ago

solardev summarized my opinion of Musk pretty well. I don't know enough about the space industry. SpaceX did introduce some pretty significant advances. But EVs: yeah they would have happened - eventually. Big car makers sat on their asses (concerning EVs), and would have kept doing so for another 5..10y or longer. Tesla took the lead, broke that market wide open, scaled up battery production enormously (which also served other applications like grid storage), and forced car makers to get in on the game or be left behind. Those car makers would have produced EVs on their own. On their timeline. But Musk kickstarted that market on his timeline. Years sooner than would have happened otherwise. Debate how many years all you want. But net effect is an enormous benefit to society. Personally, I think it may come down to stress / pressure. Musk has worked hard, for a long time. Maybe he didn't get enough sleep. Or didn't get laid (often enough, anyway :-). NOT saying he did, but if it turns out he's been popping pills or snorting coke, I would be neither surprised nor hold it against him (or even care, tbh). Regardless, such pressure tends to bring up the darker side in people. But who am I to tell Musk he needs a vacation? Fun fact: bought a pack of 70 Li-ions recently (21700) for use on my boat. These were manufactured and/or designed by Samsung... for Tesla. I didn't buy them 'cause Tesla fanboy. They're not even the chemistry I preferred. But I got 'em because they worked out to the lowest price per Wh stored (in my case, ~800 Wh total for just over €100). Tesla-initiated economies of scale. And in the meanwhile, there's now global internet access thx to StarLink. Like him or not, feel free to think he's a lunatic or an asshole, but Elon Musk has pushed humanity forward.

solardev 3y ago

When? EVs were dead in the water for decades until Tesla. Space travel has stalled since the Cold War. Satellite internet... DirecTV was a joke that used dialup or DSL upstream. A lot of industries are driven by the difficulties of operations, not necessarily innovations. He jumpstarted all three where even nation states could not. To this day I can't get better satellite internet from any other company, all electric cars are still measured against Teslas (even though I'd prefer a Rivian or Subaru/Toyota myself), and SpaceX is the doing more launch development than the US, China, and Russia combined. That doesn't make him a great inventor, perhaps, but it does make him a great something... businessman, organizer, dreamer perhaps? No one's accusing him of singlehandedly advancing science or anything like that. But he did tackle three very difficult and capital and labor and logistics and legal problems and made them all a reality where many other companies and countries have tried and failed (and continue to lag behind). Those aren't trivial accomplishments and we'd be lucky to see any of them in a generation, much less all three from the same person. There is no guarantee another person could've done all that, not even a president.

deprecative 3y ago
He didn't found Tesla. He didn't invent the EV. SpaceX is doing great work. That same talent would have been available in the market for hire by anyone if SpaceX hadn't been around. He didn't invent satellite Internet connectivity. I don't understand this hero worship that goes on in the tech sphere for a known grifter who thrives on Daddy's money and taxpayer subsidies.
- solardev 3y ago
  At the risk of sounding repetitive, I have to point out that it's not about what he innovated or invented, but his ability to organize capital and labor behind these projects where others couldn't. You keep saying anyone could've, but the fact is they didn't and still don't. Armadillo, Blue Origin, Virgin, NASA, all gave up or remain bit players. None of them invented rockets, any could've hired engineers, but SpaceX is the only one that actually made all that happen. And on automotive front, the big car markers are STILL playing catchup. No one is saying Musk is a great inventor, or even an inventor at all. Just that he successfully organized others into worthwhile projects. It's not hero worship, it's giving credit where it's due. Compare Musk to someone like Trump or Ellison or Zuckerberg or your average crypto bro founder. He's contributed far more to society by taking huge risks in industries that others had already given up on. Not every rich asshole does that.